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Sponsor Evaluation Survey
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
12:04 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  It's almost exactly a season since the Sponsors were introduced into the game.
  When introduced, Nick and me promised that there would be a public evaluation of the feature, to make sure that it works as intended, and to see where it can be improved according to the community.
  Hence the survey, which you can contribute to by filling out the following form:
  
  https://forms.gle/fNrWgbTaGgzRiuHS9
  
  There is one page with multiple choice polling questions, and one page where you can write in your suggestions. Please also post in here to confirm your participation. And please also keep the feedback on the form, and not in this thread.
  
  Deadline for the evaluation will be day 28, 12.00 GMT+1, so almost exactly a week time.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2





Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
12:04 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I have also filled out the evaluation survey myself. ;)
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Alpine
Posts: 2632

Posted at:
12:21 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  done
V02maXXers
Posts: 3576

Posted at:
12:25 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Done. Good idea to evaluate Don! Short summary of my feedback
  
  1. Like the feature and the idea of a new revenue stream. But imo it is a factor 5 - 10 too big.
  - Sponsors can give you 50k per week. That's the equivalent of 3 top div podiums
  - Compared to jobs, it could give 5 times as much in revenue
  - Compared to merchandise shop highest level, it could give 6-7 times higher revenue
  - It screws up the entire economy of the game and inflates cash. I am sorry for the managers who did save a lot of money for example to buy a 500k frame. It takes a lot of time and effort to save up that kind of money; probably meaning that no riders can be hired or talents can be trained. Now you can get it in 10 weeks if you have the right sponsor.
  
  2. More in general. I rather have the technical debt decreased (at least the major bugs) before introducing new features (and adding to the technical debt).

Last edit by V02maXXers at 12:34 3/6-2020.

PEKAC B
Posts: 3243

Posted at:
12:28 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
  
  In general I do not like the idea of just throwing money to anybody with no need to make any effort.
Drollevangers
Posts: 2520

Posted at:
12:40 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/11-2013
Status: Offline

  Check!
Nikoline
Posts: 1264

Posted at:
12:41 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/10-2014
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
  
  Unsure about the luck/skill question? Wrote a comment on it :-)
English Sprinting Team
Official Supporter
Posts: 4066

Posted at:
12:51 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 8/3-2012
Status: Offline

  Just submitted mine.
  
  I like it as is, but there’s certainly room for development if people have the time :)
  
  I like the idea of choosing a main sponsor at the start of the season, hitting targets to get the money and then having small sponsors (for like 7 days) show up when you achieve a tour win, 3 wins in a season (these are just examples FYI) that would give a small increase in cash (so achievements and good management would reward you further turning the feature more into a skill based one)
  
  -------------------------------------------
  
  I WILL get past Finz in the Most Post Ranking!
LOW 105
Posts: 238

Posted at:
12:56 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Submitted
  
  I only came back to the game a few days ago after a 3 year absense. The introduction of sponsors is the only major change I noticed, but I believe it is a game-changer!
  
  When I was last here, I firmly believed that a new source of revenue was required and was happy to see something like this was introduced. However, comming to grips with it, I tend to aggree with Lamme in the general picture and have two suggestions:
  
  1. The money is too much, I proposed a reduction by half in the survey, and that is just for starters, since I believe that possibly a reduction to a third or a quarter will be necessary.
  
  2. There is no give in the feature, sponsors are easy money for everyone without giving anything away, so no managerial input is required. Perhaps the feature could become a little risky by gaining money dependant on expected results.
  - Sponsor offers you 2000 for 30 days if you get 0 top 9s
  - Sponsor offers you 3000 for 30 days if you get 2 top 9s
  - Sponsor offers you 5000 for 30 days if you get 1 podium
  - Sponsor offers you 8000 for 30 days if you get 1 win
  (all examples, didn't put any research on the values)
  You pick your option and if you fail to deliver, you don't get the money.
  
  I know that (2) may be complicated, so if (2) can not be implemented, go back to reducing (1)
Team Belfius
Posts: 554

Posted at:
12:58 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 15/6-2016
Status: Offline

  submitted!
Glory Days
Posts: 162

Posted at:
13:02 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 21/2-2017
Status: Offline

  Submitted. Comments broadly echo peoples here - love it as it gives me wayyy too much money to fund my scouting addiction (150k in my economy screen.. oops) but conversely it is too much in terms of normal balance.
  
  Agree with LOW 105 and EST that if you could have it performance based rather than *wait for big 90 day sponsor, get lucky, click, profit!* then would probably be fairer and more balanced... if less fun for scouting fiends like me
Lokomotíva Zvolen
Posts: 530

Posted at:
13:09 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 23/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Done.
Millican
Posts: 193

Posted at:
13:09 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/4-2019
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
  
  I quite like the feature, as I think the game was too cash limited previously. It may prove that there is too much money in the game (which should be evaluated in another season or two), but all that means is a bit of a shift in how the game is played - buying top riders now becomes more reflective of real world pricing (a captain should cost much much more than a domestique). Previously, I think the value of captains was too low relative to teammates, as most teammates were going for a little over RV, while captains often for 2x RV. Captains should cost 4-6 times a teammate in my opinion, they are worth a lot more.
  
  I think this also increases the competitive balance of the game a bit, as given the increase in prices, a first division team cannot simply buy up top riders for 2x RV, they have more competition in the transfer market from lower divisions now.
peddelen
Posts: 1711

Posted at:
13:11 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  Agree with Lamme but also like to point out at if you are lucky you can get that kinda money. I spend the first 2 months with smaller sponsors so I guess I earned about 200k less which is a trained rider. Also I did not have the luxery of declining an sub- average sponsor as a team team which has 2 90 days contract which pay a lot more has.
  Also agree on the teams who made a hard equipment investment and now see that effort gone to waist. (However in the past equipment was a no-go investment anyway)
  
  On his second point. I agree but advocating for a sandbox to test features for the past 10 years has not even been considered. Resulting on numerous bugs like the exp doping, TF bug, trainer bugs and the fact that certain players have more info on upcoming bugs before implementation.
  
Yuri SuperTeam
Posts: 5468

Posted at:
13:13 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 31/7-2009
Status: Online

  Submitted!
  
  Enjoy responsibly,
  Yuri
CyclingClubChomutov
Posts: 628

Posted at:
13:27 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2012
Status: Offline

  Done
Velosipedska
Posts: 289

Posted at:
13:31 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Submitted! I was just thinking about the impact sponsors had yesterday so nice timing. I agree with a lot of the sentiment so far, but I'll add my personal thoughts:
  
  Screenshot of my sponsor journey:
  http://prntscr.com/ssy50x
  My total sponsor income so far has been 285k
  
  As you can see, you can easily get around 3k per day minimum, if you have at least 1 decent sponsor and some mediocre ones to back it up. The 5k per week, 1k per day and 7k per week deals are mediocre on their own, but fine to complement other "main" sponsors.
  I think the problem starts when you get a really good sponsor. Not only is my 25k a week sponsor really good money per day, it also lasts for an entire season. The second best 2k per day option is also a solid 35k. That means I currently get 5333 per DAY in sponsor income. I've rejected a bad offer today, but I have 4 more chances to get a really solid sponsor before one of my good ones runs out. That means I have a good chance at remaining at 5k+ per day for the entire season.
  
  I think the easy 3k per day income is great and what sponsors should be. I'm also fine with a great sponsor combination that can net you 5k+. The main issue is the duration, the best deals being the longest doubles the lottery factor. Win the amount lottery? you also win the duration lottery. We need good short deals and mediocre long deals to keep the mechanic balanced and fun.
  
  Also, I'd like for some randomization. If the deals were 750-1250 instead of 1k, it would keep things fresh, and give a sense of negotiations going on. We wouldn't all have the exact same deals and the search for the optimal combination might last a bit longer. It would also combine the skill of choosing deals with the luck of getting a nice sponsor. Perhaps there could even be a small staff bonus for the amount. Perhaps the PR manager is a great deal maker?
  
  Lastly, many seem to think wages could be introduced to balance sponsor income. I'd like to see if my income values compare to those of others. It looks like it's easy to get at least 3k income, and rare to get more. With these conditions I think wages should never amount to more than 3k/day. Between 1k and 2k, depending on the amount of skilled riders, should be fine. It would also be best to introduce wages after most changes to sponsors have been made. When we know an average sponsor income we can calculate the best wage values for the game.
  
  My suggestions/TLDR:
  - Short good deals, long bad deals
  - Randomize the amounts slightly
  - If wages are introduced, make them ~50% of the expected sponsor income
  
  EDIT: I just reread the first post saying please keep the feedback on the form, not the thread. Oops. Perhaps we need a community feedback discussion thread on the forums?

Last edit by Velosipedska at 13:42 3/6-2020.

Goege Team
Posts: 903

Posted at:
13:44 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 15/7-2018
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
  
  Mostly agree what was written before.
  I don't think sponsors are changing anything at the top, but I'm afraid that newer and good lower division managers will have more problems to raise in the ranking because the less interested managers get a lot of money for more or less free.
  
  So the advantage of the managing ability is much lower than before.
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 2706

Posted at:
13:46 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  Done
Sicco
Posts: 166

Posted at:
13:54 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 28/5-2019
Status: Online

  done
Millican
Posts: 193

Posted at:
13:56 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/4-2019
Status: Offline

  Interesting take Goege, I kind of think the opposite! At least for me, the sponsor money has allowed me to build my team much more quickly in the last season, and I've been able to move from division 5 to 3...it may be the teams that benefit most are those that largely train their own riders.
Team WonderDee
Posts: 5654

Posted at:
14:46 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
Status: Offline

  Done.
  
  I like the extra money as a team that train riders, but it would be great with some demands from the sponsors to get fully paid.
  
  Some teams have been lucky to get big sponsors, but all my offers have been mid to small sponsors.
Australian Warlord
Posts: 1668

Posted at:
15:00 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Offline

  Done, with the following comment.
  
   The sponsor feature effectively devalues all of the other proper forms of game revenue. Jobs are worthless, even race income isn't of that much value outside the top 5 or so teams in comparison to sponsors. The only revenue streams that hold value to any decree are DP dopping, and divisional dopping; and both of those are not positives.
  
   One thing I thought would have been good is if many teams were struggling with money, add several more low profit jobs, jobs that take longer without being cash heavy; which would be more attractive to lower income teams compared to 1st div teams.

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 15:12 3/6-2020.

Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 1057

Posted at:
15:12 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  Done
Team AEK
Posts: 769

Posted at:
15:19 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  Done.
Vaduz
Posts: 509

Posted at:
15:29 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/9-2018
Status: Online

  Done. Since the start of sponsoring, I’ve earned 256k in sponsors, 190k in racing and 80k in jobs. That seems too much on the sponsoring side. Should certainly help new teams though as it raises the speed at which they can go from replacement level riders so probably not a bad thing for the game overall
IndieRock
Posts: 456

Posted at:
15:35 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 14/7-2010
Status: Offline

  Done
Universal Soup
Posts: 353

Posted at:
16:10 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 10/3-2019
Status: Online

  done.
Moose Machines
Posts: 237

Posted at:
16:49 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 2/3-2019
Status: Offline

  Done
TD rockets
Posts: 441

Posted at:
17:24 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/7-2013
Status: Offline

  Done
Nobodies
Posts: 191

Posted at:
17:28 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 30/3-2013
Status: Offline

  done
Flanders Fields
Posts: 1428

Posted at:
17:50 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 20/5-2014
Status: Offline

  Done
Matrix team
Posts: 4840

Posted at:
18:02 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/10-2009
Status: Online

  Done
  
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  Quote of the moment : “Don't think you are, know you are."
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7432

Posted at:
18:10 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Online

  done
WelchAllyn
Posts: 111

Posted at:
18:36 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 10/6-2019
Status: Offline

  Also filled in the poll.
  
  I think the sponsor mechanic is way too luck based and gives too much money in general.
  At the moment, since the start of the introduction of sponsor, I've only gotten 1k a day, 5k a week and canteen sponsorships (a lot of them with max 3 sponsors), while friends of mine got consistently 25k a week, 150k a season. Now I'm not complaining, free cash is free cash, but it leaves a lot to be desired. There's no tactics involved, no work you need to invest, just click a button and claim the sweet cash.
  
  In my opinion, 'normal' sponsorships should be reduced in amount of money and offered at the start of the season, which will keep going until the end, and should be broadly the same in general income for all players involved.
  Besides that would be special sponsorships: you gain access to them when reaching their certain requirements, you toggle them, and after they run out, you'll have to work again to regain them.
  Things would include stuff like 'win X amount of races', 'get x amount of results', 'win a tour', 'win a classic', 'max x amount of riders (shows that you train riders)', etc.
  These sponsorships would be lucrative and give an incentive to work for and give a much fairer chance in my opinion.
  
  I don't know how feasible this is, but I'd prefer this a whole lot more than the lottery that sponsorships are at the moment.
  
  
Swashbucklers
Posts: 50

Posted at:
18:59 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 17/5-2019
Status: Offline

  i submitted it. not going to suggest anything in this forum because i already said what i needed to say on the evaluation. basically i said it is fine as is and that maybe a few tweaks can be made. besides, changes aren't going to be made based on anything said on this forum. and it remains to be seen if suggestions will be made based on the poll. we'll see won't we.
  
  btw... others are saying that they are "making too much from the sponsors". well, i'm not making squat. maybe 20k and some canteens, an elevation in team spirit and some scouts. it was either take that or wait another week and get nothing for that week.

Last edit by Swashbucklers at 19:45 3/6-2020.

team dustin
Posts: 1594

Posted at:
19:43 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 30/11-2016
Status: Offline

  done
  
  edit:
  forgot this:
  "performance sponsorship"
  it looks good, but be aware, a minor part of the teams takes the most of it
  I say yes, but a minor importance on the total sponsorship

Last edit by team dustin at 20:43 3/6-2020.

Navarone Cycling Team
Posts: 1072

Posted at:
19:52 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 26/7-2011
Status: Online

  done
LOW 105
Posts: 238

Posted at:
21:18 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  dustin, performance based on results (positions rather than points or racing money earned) regardless of the division meaning that, with the exception of division 1, absolutely everybody is in with a good chance to make the money. It's all up to good planning and self-knowledge (two managerial skills) thereafter.
Tashkent Browncoats
Posts: 1922

Posted at:
21:44 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2014
Status: Offline

  done
  
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2167

Posted at:
22:09 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  Done.
Zalom
Posts: 151

Posted at:
22:21 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 23/3-2016
Status: Online

  Done
Ello Ello
Posts: 1418

Posted at:
22:25 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  replied
Team Longshot
Posts: 101

Posted at:
22:27 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 9/12-2014
Status: Offline

  done
  
M Uno
Posts: 12

Posted at:
22:59 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 21/3-2015
Status: Offline

  completed
Team Oasis
Posts: 2015

Posted at:
23:24 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 17/9-2011
Status: Online

  Completed.
  
  Ive worked out a rough version of a more advanced system. It may be alot of text, but hope you can read it through an perhaps use (bits) of it for improvement.
USA Postal Services
Posts: 1139

Posted at:
23:25 3/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 18/2-2018
Status: Offline

  Doney.
  
  
  
  ------
  
   ‘Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer’. Revelations 6: 1-2
AusGo
Posts: 1642

Posted at:
00:40 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 21/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Teehee
Rwanda Power
Posts: 64

Posted at:
01:31 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 25/5-2017
Status: Offline

  Done
TeamQuetzal
Posts: 771

Posted at:
07:43 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 24/11-2015
Status: Offline

  dooone
Alx4475
Posts: 56

Posted at:
07:44 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 24/5-2019
Status: Online

  Done
Equipo Easy On
Posts: 1703

Posted at:
08:31 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 2/2-2009
Status: Online

  I have not been very lucky with my contracts so far, in the meantime I though, the feature had been tuned down, as I only got 5k/week, 6k/week, TS and Canteens for a couple of weeks. Then it got better. And I had a lucky stroke of 2k/day twice.
  
  Bloody hell. Still, I had an average weekly income of 13k.
  
  It is great for me as I can scout more and get anywhere with my training. I do not interact much with other teams, so do not really care.
  
  BUT: I find the feature is too strong. It should not simply put more money into a system that has been accumulating wealth since Season 1 Day1. It should focus on the core of the game: scouting, training and racing and maybe stimulating new challenges like training your youth academy riders, one nation teams, something like that.
  
  So I am all for discounts on training, more talents from the talents feature, canteens.
  
  Two thoughts just struck me:
  
  What about sponsors giving you equipment for some time? Like a great frame?
  
  The other thing: Maybe equipment should be rented in this game? instead of wages?

Last edit by Equipo Easy On at 08:34 4/6-2020.

InterTeam
Posts: 5

Posted at:
08:45 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2020
Status: Offline

  Done
Asamoa
Posts: 26

Posted at:
09:19 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/1-2019
Status: Offline

  Done
ABK
Posts: 3279

Posted at:
11:14 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  voted
  or well filled out the survey
Clenbuterol Cheats
Posts: 32

Posted at:
11:56 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 1/8-2017
Status: Offline

  Done
  
  It seems most are saying the sponsor feature has been a positive development but the volume of money needs to be turned down.
  
  To enact this I would pursue a reduction in the total number of sponsors at any one time to 2. This would reduce the benefits whilst not massively altering the fabric of the game. It may also result in teams having to make more decisions in relation to accepting/declining sponsor proposals.
Team Guy
Posts: 398

Posted at:
12:04 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/9-2014
Status: Offline

  I didn't think of this when I filled in the survey but I totally agree with Eli's points above.
  
  Instead of straight cash, the sponsors should generally be more targeted to the core elements of scouting, training & racing - so free scouts, free canteens, reducing time between talents, new equipment, ts boosts, training discounts and so on. So just up the frequency that these appear, maybe with a few new ones, and reduce the frequency on cash, especially big cash.
  
  I currently have a 25k per week sponsor, with another 25k per week waiting to be accepted soon. Obviously I will waste it all on scouting and training mediocre talents but 50k per week still seems a disproportionate amount compared to revenue from racing which should always be the most rewarding aspect of the game imo.
CC Est
Posts: 636

Posted at:
12:22 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
AnnoDomini
Posts: 3412

Posted at:
13:08 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2011
Status: Online

  Submitted
Cokol Breakaway Team
Posts: 645

Posted at:
13:32 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 15/3-2015
Status: Offline

  Done. Good work!
Cyclists
Posts: 1044

Posted at:
13:53 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/8-2012
Status: Offline

  Done
Team Dag Otto
Posts: 17

Posted at:
15:32 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/4-2010
Status: Offline

  Done
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 2510

Posted at:
16:25 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Done
WelchAllyn
Posts: 111

Posted at:
20:55 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 10/6-2019
Status: Offline

  Eli, your idea of sponsors reducing training costs or providing gear seems very fun to see, instead of straight up cash!
Spin Doctors
Posts: 1075

Posted at:
21:29 4/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 18/6-2015
Status: Online

  Submitted some thoughts.
Canadian Nippon
Posts: 249

Posted at:
00:57 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/4-2011
Status: Offline

  Submitted.
  
  Sponsorship should be between 2.000 - 10.000K paid every week
  Bonuses should be core elements of scouting, training & racing.
   - New Talents - winning or podiums at major event - Tour, Cup, Classic = credibility and riders wanting to race for your team.
   - Wins or podiums - reduces the amount of time between talents
  - Equipment - Locked to sponsors so by signing with sponsors bonus of using their equipment; which cannot be purchased. New way of introducing more equipment into the game from frames, gears, wheels, shorts, helmets, handle bars, seats etc... (Maybe even division lock some of these equipment sponsors stronger ones only available in div 1 - 3)
USA Postal Services
Posts: 1139

Posted at:
01:23 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 18/2-2018
Status: Offline

  Adding sould to riders, @Canadian Nippon? That's about point number 1. It's an interesting idea about the riders wanting to race for you instead the opposite, you hiring them...
  
  I was the first to propose at the beginning of the sponsorship deals to do it based on achievement during a season, but no one paid me attention. Now it seems everyone is agree, ironic...
  
  
  ------
  
   ‘Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer’. Revelations 6: 1-2
USA Postal Services
Posts: 1139

Posted at:
05:16 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 18/2-2018
Status: Offline

  I don't know Rick... I think that would be a major change and you would kill new teams, because if you don't have results or starting after a team sell like me, they would be in a PONR (Point Of No Return).
  
  Simply impossible, but still a great idea. Because all riders would like to join a Top Team.
  
  
  ------
  
   ‘Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer’. Revelations 6: 1-2
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
06:52 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  Remember people, this is not a discussion thread.
  
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Silenzio
Posts: 182

Posted at:
12:52 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Offline

  Done - rookie opinion :)
Mark Pro Team
Posts: 1323

Posted at:
13:24 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 1/12-2013
Status: Offline

  Done. This influates the economy so adding new costs for big teams (including my team) should be considered to balance the increased income.
  
  I would like sponsor rewards based on certain goals. For example training a rider in a certain stat, which rewards 90% of the training as a result. Or winning a jersey or classic to get a reward or don't get anything, less risk is less money reward.
  
Fighting
Posts: 2059

Posted at:
13:34 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2013
Status: Online

  Done
ArxhangiiliPoznyakax
Posts: 309

Posted at:
15:32 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/6-2019
Status: Online

  Done.
  I think 1 sponsor should be permanent and based on which division you are in. So you have an incentive to stay in the best divisions .
Rantanplan
Posts: 2826

Posted at:
15:35 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 8/12-2010
Status: Offline

  Done
Comfius
Posts: 1550

Posted at:
19:05 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Offline

  Done
SsebasS85
Posts: 379

Posted at:
22:48 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 25/3-2018
Status: Online

  Done.
  
  I didn’t know at the time it was so much different reward between sponsors.
  People makes a day what I make in a week with two sponsors.
  Please don’t change the sponsor system until I hit the jackpot too.
Il Grillo
Posts: 1141

Posted at:
22:58 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/6-2009
Status: Offline

  Done too
familytour
Posts: 3598

Posted at:
23:54 5/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  Done
Lundar Cycling Team
Posts: 146

Posted at:
12:13 6/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 20/1-2011
Status: Offline

  Done
Velo Club Bored Man
Posts: 1142

Posted at:
12:25 6/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2009
Status: Online

  Done.
  
  On a very very basic level, I asked myself 'is the Sponsor feature' enhancing my enjoyment of the game? -- And it is, massively. I hope we don't kill it.
paceuts
Posts: 1095

Posted at:
17:14 6/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/6-2018
Status: Offline

  Done, glad to see you are collecting this feedback and happy to share my opinion in further discussions, especially from the perspective of a younger team.
rad1
Posts: 5

Posted at:
00:00 7/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 20/1-2018
Status: Offline

  Done.
  
  I agree with you, Hairingtons.
Drapeau Noir
Posts: 4669

Posted at:
15:59 7/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 8/8-2010
Status: Offline

  Done
Drapeau Noir
Posts: 4669

Posted at:
16:02 7/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 8/8-2010
Status: Offline

  Lamme said it all:
  
  1. Like the feature and the idea of a new revenue stream. But imo it is a factor 5 - 10 too big.
  
  Yes!
  
   - Sponsors can give you 50k per week. That's the equivalent of 3 top div podiums
   - Compared to jobs, it could give 5 times as much in revenue
   - Compared to merchandise shop highest level, it could give 6-7 times higher revenue
  
  Yes yes yes
  
   - It screws up the entire economy of the game and inflates cash. I am sorry for the managers who did save a lot of money for example to buy a 500k frame. It takes a lot of time and effort to save up that kind of money; probably meaning that no riders can be hired or talents can be trained. Now you can get it in 10 weeks if you have the right sponsor.
  
  Yes!
  
   2. More in general. I rather have the technical debt decreased (at least the major bugs) before introducing new features (and adding to the technical debt).
  
  YES!!!!!!!!
Nefal
Posts: 808

Posted at:
01:40 9/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 24/6-2013
Status: Offline

  I jotted down some hopefully coherent late night thoughts.
Bilsky
Posts: 353

Posted at:
13:50 9/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 20/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Done
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
16:21 10/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  The Deadline has closed, thanks to all for your participation!
  I will discuss the results with Nick first, and hopefully be able to present a plan of action within a week.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 47

Posted at:
01:20 13/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Online

  I missed this thread, and the survey, completely. Speaking for the new members who struggle:
  
  On one side of the argument, it makes things too easier for newer teams to make some progress.
  
  On the other side, maybe, just maybe it will mean a lot more new managers stay, rather than getting disillusioned and giving up. I wonder how many of those are lost per year.
Mark Pro Team
Posts: 1323

Posted at:
16:31 16/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 1/12-2013
Status: Offline

  Money Transfer my team (economy tab)
  
   Alternative jobs: 14.000 $
   Merchandise: 8.530 $
   Prize money: 47.000 $
   Scouting: 12.000 $
   Sponsorship: 75.000 $
   Training: 900 $
   Balance: 131.630 $
  
  I didn't spend a lot of money on training ($900), and a bit on scouting ($12000), but the extra $75000 as a bonus from sponsorship deals is insane. Extra costs for being a 1st / 2nd division team isn't that bad, I think to balance it a little bit. I receive $3.571,43 a day on average as a bonus now with the new system. I propose the following costs:
  div cost per day
  1 $2.500,00
  2 $2.200,00
  3 $1.900,00
  4 $1.600,00
  5 $1.300,00
  6 $900,00
  7 $600,00
  8 $300,00
  9 $-
  10 $-
  11 $-
  
  Cost = cost lowest division+cost other lowest division)/2
  
  So if I would be during the day in division 1, 2 en 3. It is calculated as ($1900 + $2200) = $2050 as costs that day. Easy to implement, still inflation will be higher than before the sponsor system, but not too extreme beneficial for higher division teams like me. As a $3500+ bonus will be a $1100+ bonus. At least 3 times smaller.
peddelen
Posts: 1711

Posted at:
10:38 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  2 weeks and counting.
  
  Let me guess: plans will come after the Tour.
  Or is Nick giving priority to finishing the "Live" feature? ;)
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
12:37 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I have no excuses for Nick. Will keep it at that.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Team AEK
Posts: 769

Posted at:
14:30 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  I guess it has been said before, but maybe he could save himself some time with dropping some suggestions beforehand instead of changing the game in a bad way and having to repair it afterwards.
Australian Warlord
Posts: 1668

Posted at:
19:02 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Offline

  If not the first, I was one of the first to question the economic balance here. However I'm not bothered with the delay for changes, it will happen. I'd presume the current sponsors would require de-coupling from the game's code.
  
  Of course, depending on how much time Nick has, and how much of a delay there would be before a revamped version came available, maybe an interim measure could be to cut daily scouts & top tier sponsor amounts from offers, giving time to generate a revamped version.
  And I'm sure many of us has thought lists on what would make good option (I know I do in my head), but I'm sure it'll come and the sponsors will meet what it's potential improvement can be.
  
  @AEK: I don't think the sponsors is necessarily a bad change, it still has great potential, it's only an issue of balance.
Velosipedska
Posts: 289

Posted at:
19:17 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/2-2020
Status: Offline

  +1 for balancing sponsors, they haven't been a bad change for the game at all. I think many newer managers like myself would have been putt off by the previous financial system. I don't need as much as sponsors can give now, but without sponsors I wouldn't have been able to train my riders - the most fun part of the game.
  
  There are a lot of older games out there that used to be brutal, but lessened the difficulty a bit to appeal to a broader audience. And that's okay - this isn't a game for instant gratification, but a bit more financial room really makes the game more enjoyable.
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7432

Posted at:
19:26 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Online

  I think the sponsors are a good thing. Higher prices for riders therefor more reasonable. Before riders where too cheap
  And you can train more riders, team become more competitive
Team AEK
Posts: 769

Posted at:
19:39 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  I don’t mean that sponsors are a bad thing, but the implementation could’ve been way better. And presenting the ideas and adjusting them, instead of just implementing it, would’ve helped.
  
  Now every idiot in the game can have truckloads of money and for example as Lamme Frans said you can easily buy the best equipment if you get the best sponsors, or by selling some riders for the much higher prices.
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7432

Posted at:
20:09 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Online

  At least the idiots are everywhere now and not only in Div 1
Velosipedska
Posts: 289

Posted at:
20:47 25/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Making things easier to obtain does not devaluate the achievement of getting this when it was harder. People who saved up for frames can be glad people won't need to stop investing in their squad to get good equipment.
  Even with inflated income, I can only afford to put aside 10% of all income for purchases, such as staff and the cheapest equipment stuff. If I were to go all in for that frame I would still have to stop investing in my squad, just for a more reasonable period of time.
Canadian Nippon
Posts: 249

Posted at:
02:24 26/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/4-2011
Status: Offline

  @KrMees: I think you are missing the point as a new manager. As you develop a team or buy a team as majority of managers agree is the cheaper/more effective way then training; your team will come to a point where you have limited to no expense as all your riders are trained so you start to only fine tune your team or look for the next big star. This is why all the top long lasting managers have a ton of cash in the game compared to a new or returning play.
  
  If you keep your riders from start to finish: age 20 - age 35 that is 15 season in the game and it takes about a season or two to train a single rider for most managers but faster if you have more cash so now having teams in this 15 season window with no expense is the issue as they are simple building up a lot of cash.
  
  Taking a break for a season or two at the current moment will not hurt your team with $250.000+ in sponsorship cash per season without looking at winnings from results, jobs and merchandise. Two season to hold training and have everything else maxed means stronger investment in riders in the future will pay off more and collect more cash compared to the past where you had to fight to balance the cash/needs of the team with training of your team.
  
  Sponsorship is a good thing but maybe a bit too good at the moment so needs to be scaled back or balanced. Could argue that winnings should be increase while the sponsorship is decreased so that you see more of a result based system like in the past.
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7432

Posted at:
22:10 28/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Online

  Make a survey, make changes, don't publish survey results
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
22:14 28/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I will publish them, it waited until having discussed the results, and that took slightly longer than expected. But the written feedback is not really realistic to publish and that's most interesting to actually see, so it won't really say much.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Canadian Nippon
Posts: 249

Posted at:
23:26 28/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/4-2011
Status: Offline

  Why not make a pie chart showing what % managers would like to see when providing the results then provide an general comment based on the actually questions asked during the survey?
  
  I think the Sponsors give:
  X% Enough money/other support
  Y% Too much money / other support
  Z% Too little money/ other support
  
  Comments: Blah blah blah etc....
  
  The balance between different sponsors is:
  X%
  Y%
  Z%
  
  Comments: Blah Blah blah etc....
  
  Provides the community with a clear picture of what other managers have been thinking towards the survey and provide transparency.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
12:54 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  Best I can do with the time available:
  
  I think the Sponsors give:
  
  Enough money/other support 44 votes, 45.4%
  Too much money/other support 50 votes, 51.5%
  Too little money/other support 3 votes, 3.1%
  
  The comments, in which around 50-70 managers voiced their opinions, also show a lot of people saying the total amounts need to be tweaked down. This also included some who answered 'enough' to this question.
  
  The balance between different sponsors is:
  
  As it should be 66 votes, 68%
  The differences are too big 27 votes, 28%
  The differences are too small 4 votes, 4%
  
  These results did not make sense at all combined with the comments. I feel like this statement was misunderstood, or people answered based on their own offers only, because one of the main complaints in the comments was that some of these sponsors gave an unfair advantage compared to others. And this was not just the 27 voting 'too big'. Also, there were a lot of suggestions for a more diverse set of sponsors, once again, not just from those 27.
  
  The amount of different sponsors is
  
  As it should be 63 votes, 66%
  Too large 10 votes, 11%
  Too small 22 votes, 23%
  
  This still clashes with the amount of suggestions received for different sponsors, but it makes more sense, considering replacing sponsors would also be an option. So on the whole this one will mean that we won't go overboard with adding lots of new sponsors.
  
  I feel like the Sponsor feature is:
  
  Luck based
  1: 39 (40%)
  2: 33 (34%)
  3: 22 (22%)
  4: 3 (4%)
  5: 0
  Skill Based
  
  This one is very clear. The Sponsor feature is definitely seen as luck-based. While we knew that this would be the case to some extent, it was not our intention when designing the feature, and this means we have now tried to fix that by balancing out the differences between sponsors, and by limiting the decision time you have, making every decision you make more important. We are also considering options for more skill-based sponsors, but that might turn out to be too difficult to implement.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Canadian Nippon
Posts: 249

Posted at:
13:04 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/4-2011
Status: Offline

  That is perfect Don!! Thank you!!
Fighting
Posts: 2059

Posted at:
13:51 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2013
Status: Online

  Thanks :).
Velo Club Bored Man
Posts: 1142

Posted at:
14:10 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2009
Status: Online

  So basically, this is Brexit.
  
  52/48. And the people who made the survey already saying that some questions may have been misunderstood ;)
  
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5145

Posted at:
17:40 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  Well, I sure hope it's not as controversial as that. ;)
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Velosipedska
Posts: 289

Posted at:
19:29 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Nice insights there Don.
  
  Maybe reducing luck can be achieved by giving players a choice every time a new deal is offered. Always either money or scouts/ts/supplies/performance. Or always offer a choice between a short or a long deal. Especially now sponsors get a bit more balanced the choice will not always be easy.
Fighting
Posts: 2059

Posted at:
19:51 30/6-2020 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2013
Status: Online

  Good suggestions, KrMees. +1
Canadian Nippon
Posts: 249

Posted at:
01:49 1/7-2020 GMT

Registered: 16/4-2011
Status: Offline

  Very Good suggestion KrMees +2

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