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Super Domestiques
Team Zyte
Developer
Posts: 2581

Posted at:
22:33 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2007
Status: Offline

  Hello everyone!
  
  I have recently been working on a new feature primarily to improve the balance in tours, where non-CL captains are boosted to great results on mountain stages through the use of strong CL-team-mates.
  
  In an effort to make sure that more riders finish ahead of strong TT'ers on climbing stages in tours, I have introduced a new Team Mate role called Super Domestique.
  
  The Super Domestique is well-known from real life cycling where he is a protected rider all day and ends up as the last climber for the captain. The Super Domestique often places high in the results himself.
  
  How does it work?
  I always liked a bit of mystery to the roles, so that you cannot calculate everything - even though I know many of you prefer to run the maths, but I can reveal that the Super Domestique contributes less to the Captain than a regular Team Mate and that the focus is more on climbing over the other skills to similuate the real life Super Domestique.
  
  Furthermore, the Super Domestique is a protected rider gaining some benefit from the other team mates while still providing help for the Captain in the end.
  
  Performance vice, you can consider the Super Domestique as a role that mixes the possibility to have another Captain with the benefit of another Team Mate. The Super Domestique is placed in the middle of those two and will therefore allow you to make even more tactical decisions when racing.
  
  Seeing that the Super Domestique has to save a lot of energy for his own role on the last climb, the Super Domestique does naturally not provide the same benefit to the Captain as a regular Pace Setter team mate would.
  
  The Super Domestique is also saved in windy conditions by the Wind Breaker.
  
  I look forward to seeing how this will play out in tours, and I hope you will like this new feature.
  
  
  
  Best regards,
  OCM Developer Nick





Tashkent Browncoats
Posts: 2076

Posted at:
22:40 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2014
Status: Online

  Awesome to see new additions still added every once a while! So if I understand correctly, this role is not so much designed to help the captain, but more to slip in the stage classification so that TT-riders are less able to score well in climbing stages and do unreasonably well in the GC?
Ello Ello
Posts: 1473

Posted at:
22:42 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Online

  can be used in normal races too. Not sure if it's worth doing there but may try it anyway for fun
  
  Really love the change Nick, thanks for all the time you put in
Lokomotíva Zvolen
Posts: 869

Posted at:
23:00 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 23/7-2014
Status: Offline

  I think this should be mentioned in the Manual for the new managers.
  
  Time to rethink Copa de la Historia...

Last edit by Lokomotíva Zvolen at 23:02 9/2-2021.

Tashkent Browncoats
Posts: 2076

Posted at:
23:01 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2014
Status: Online

  I'm curious to see what this role does to TS, that could make for interesting planning tactics
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
23:05 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  True. Does the Super Domestique profit from the TS of the other 4 teammates or does his TS still count for the captain because at the end he will be a teammate for the captain?
  
  Can I compare this with a dh guide and a hill helper?
  
  Thanks Nick for the new feature.:)
  

Last edit by DeRodeLantaarn at 23:12 9/2-2021.

royle
Posts: 579

Posted at:
23:11 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/6-2012
Status: Offline

  This sounds class! I surely will be using this new tactic!
Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 1347

Posted at:
23:45 9/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  Great that you're adding new ways to play the game!
  
  A couple of questions:
  
  Is it possible to run multiple super domestiques in the same race?
  
  Might a similar role be created for sprinters?
Nairobi City Cycling Club
Posts: 3154

Posted at:
00:02 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/8-2010
Status: Offline

  Great update, if it’s bug free :)
paceuts
Posts: 1608

Posted at:
02:35 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/6-2018
Status: Offline

  It's always great to see a new feature - thanks Nick!
  
  I look forward to seeing what kind of impact this has.
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 101

Posted at:
02:52 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Thanks Nick. Now to read through again, at least twice!
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 101

Posted at:
03:27 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Right, I'm going to give it a try. Unwin Treadwell is running as a Super Domestique in the Clasico Carretera Austral (Div 6) on Day 5. Hagen Hunzberger is Captain, of course. Unwin would have been a PS but I am happy to experiment.

Last edit by Lindfield Locknuts at 03:28 10/2-2021.

Trim Trust Energy
Posts: 26

Posted at:
05:20 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 2/10-2015
Status: Offline

  Thanks a lot for this update , it makes game more deep and interesting thus my team has a lot of climbers , I should play with a lot of tactic experiment.
Goege Team
Posts: 1224

Posted at:
06:38 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/7-2018
Status: Online

  Thanks Nick, new features are always welcome :-)
ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
08:02 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  This is great!
Zakisu Pirtina
Posts: 317

Posted at:
08:04 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 21/8-2010
Status: Online

  Just managed to quickly sneak in a Super Domestique for Sultan Ageng Cup. My super domestique finished 8th, but Captain - 12th. Both on normal days.
  
  I like the option of having a second shot, if the first one fails, and not comiting to two captains.
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
08:36 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  Thanks for putting this in Nick!
  
  Great to see a long time OCM chat suggestion make it to the game :)
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5425

Posted at:
09:13 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  @Jime
  
  Nick can answer things better than me, but we are not planning to have this role for sprinters. However, there are plans for a different addition to Sprint tactics.
  
  It is not possible to run more than 1 SD at the time. The Tactics page doesn't let you confirm settings with 2 of them.
  
  @MW
  
  I would say it is different to DH guides and HL helpers, because the SD actually keeps performing at a decently high level themselves, but also costs more support for the captain that those other roles should do.
  
  My personal guess is that they do profit from TS, because they do get support bonus from the rest of the riders, but this is definitely something Nick knows better.
  
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
09:15 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  Absolutely great to see dumbris post above. Solid reflection of real life cycling where this is a very common.
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 3216

Posted at:
09:15 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  Very nice addition and this will change the climbing races quite a lot a suspect.
Designa Legends PPDB
Posts: 1070

Posted at:
09:22 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 26/3-2011
Status: Offline

  I had a SD in my DH race today. Captain finished 4th, SD finished 15th.
  I actually suspect that both ended higer than they would have without SD.
  One of my DH guides recieved an injury and the field was very strong, so 4th for my captain Fuifui Blacka is good. 15th (I know it doesnt matter whether he finished 10th or 110th) for Nadif Nyanzi is way above expectation.
Navarone Cycling Team
Posts: 1377

Posted at:
09:22 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 26/7-2011
Status: Offline

  can't wait to test it in TvA :'D

Last edit by Navarone Cycling Team at 09:23 10/2-2021.

PetrolGas
Posts: 181

Posted at:
09:44 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/11-2019
Status: Online

  Great feature. Thanks!
royle
Posts: 579

Posted at:
10:17 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/6-2012
Status: Offline

  Big question is... which rider will be the Sebb Kuss of real life? O.o
Velosipedska
Posts: 494

Posted at:
12:30 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Wow, that's a cool idea! I'm often weighing whether to use Nikolovski as a captain for the best results, or let Spirkoski take a shot at the YC. Perhaps I'll go for a captain+SD tactic from now on, at least in the first few stages.
Tashkent Browncoats
Posts: 2076

Posted at:
15:45 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2014
Status: Online

  With regards to TS my question was more if the super domestique also "recharges" his TS in that role, or differently worder: Does the super domestique count as a free role?
ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
15:49 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  As it is a TM subrole I would be very surprised if it gives a TS boost. From what I have heard that is how it is supposed to be.
Opium Fueled
Posts: 1828

Posted at:
19:21 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/1-2012
Status: Online

  Noooo, what's wrong with TTers performing in tours?:(
  
  This works for all skills right not just CL, it was only an example in the op?

Last edit by Opium Fueled at 19:22 10/2-2021.

Team AEK
Posts: 851

Posted at:
19:42 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  I think just CL since there’s no way to set the stat to focus on.
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
20:07 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  CL is the only that makes sense for this type of role.
MrSjaakBraak
Posts: 776

Posted at:
21:57 10/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/1-2013
Status: Online

  Wouldn't it also work for DH and HL races? Every race where you would normally use a TM and not a LO I would imagine.
LoleursLovers
Posts: 850

Posted at:
01:27 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 14/1-2018
Status: Online

  Very interesting. Thanks. The same as Arie. Does it work in HL or DH races?
paceuts
Posts: 1608

Posted at:
01:52 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/6-2018
Status: Offline

  I’m sure the tactic is available, but Nick said that “ the focus is more on climbing over the other skills” so I’m pretty sure the TM advantage given is mostly in climbing.
Bywater CT
Posts: 2027

Posted at:
09:41 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/8-2010
Status: Offline

  "Noooo, what's wrong with TTers performing in tours?:( "
  
  Apparently a lot. Do you remember all the comments after I dared to win Germany with Falcone?
ArxhangiiliPoznyakax
Posts: 377

Posted at:
10:13 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 5/6-2019
Status: Offline

  interesting
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7553

Posted at:
10:21 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Offline

  Interesting update.
PEKAC B
Posts: 3480

Posted at:
10:47 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  I do not think there is anything wrong with TTers performing well in tours, they still could. The issue is that that the TTers without relevant skills performed well in the pure CL stages comparing to the pure climbers.
  
  I would say this could bring some balance between CL performance in TTs (where the climbers are usually beatan by all the TT field and by often by sprinters as well) and TTers performance in CL stages (where TTers should be beaten by more climbers than it was in the past).
  
  This is one of the updates which could make sense (while I do not see many of them...), let see how it works.
team dustin
Posts: 1971

Posted at:
11:19 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 30/11-2016
Status: Offline

  I think about TTers (TT, FL and TQ) with then with next skill CL instead of SP/HL
Millican
Posts: 269

Posted at:
11:22 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 22/4-2019
Status: Offline

  Nairo Campenaerts?
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 3216

Posted at:
11:48 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  I understand the :( of Oriental.
  Does this mean that riders like Shu Jin or my Julian de Ruiter will be next to useless? There are a couple of riders trained specifically for climbing tours with TT's, but all of a sudden they will not perform as good as was expected when they were trained.
PEKAC B
Posts: 3480

Posted at:
11:54 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  I would not say useless but for sure affected. It could be expected they will finish 10th - 15th in the CL stages instead of 3rd to 7th.
  
  Which is fair I believe if there are 50 better climbers in the field.
  
  We will see if they are still able to get enough benefit in the TT comparing the better CL but worse TT GC captains.
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 3216

Posted at:
11:57 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  I also believe it is fair, but with hindsight some training projects could prove less usefull.
  We will only know the real differende if the 'TT riders' still compete in the Tours like they have been.
peddelen
Posts: 1727

Posted at:
12:18 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  Why would I use Superdomestique if I want to win a GC with a climber?
  If I use this tactic most likely my captain will drop more than one position in results but the TT GC riders will only lose one spot because my superdomestique finishes ahead of them.
  
  The solution that to the problem suggests is not in the role of teammates but in the performace of riders at the base. Meaning when you have a race that with a 9-2-2-2-2-0-2-0 profile a domestique with 90 in CL en 30 in all other stats should still have a 75% chance to finish ahead of a TT rider without any support.
  
  I option does give some tactical options so I am not saying it is a bad feature but not for the problem of TT riders finishing too high up in CL stages.
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
12:18 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  To be honest, I dont believe many people would actually use this role frequently. Its help to the captain is decreased, so in a tour you will almost always prefer PS/DHG/HH over SD, if you have one specific rider you target GC with.
  
  Also: funny that SD get relatively better in comparison to other TM in windy conditions if one uses a windbreaker. Not sure I get the logic here.
  
  Curious about results of testers :)
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
12:20 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  A tt-er with cl will be more important I guess for climbing tours if he wasn't it already.
  Didn't pay much attention at the GC but I can imagine that.
  With climbing teammates you can still win and get your best climber also in the top 9 GC.
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
12:22 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  @peddelen. Yes thats exactly what I was trying to say, phrased differently, at the very same moment :)
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
12:27 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  I will try it in Alpe d`Huez Classic with Conceicao and Campos.
  
  They could finish between 9 and 15 place I think so curious what they will do.
  Conceicao captain and Campos Super D.
Goege Team
Posts: 1224

Posted at:
12:46 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/7-2018
Status: Online

  @peddelen & Erwinator: That was what I was thinking too.
  But Nick wrote that a SD contributes less than a TM but more in CL. So in a heavy CL stage he could still contribute as much as a TM (in total, not in the individual skills) due to contributing more in CL (important skill) and less in the unimportant skills and additionally still do better himself?
  That‘s my explanation, otherwise I agree, don‘t know if it is used much in tours.

Last edit by Goege Team at 12:49 11/2-2021.

Yuri SuperTeam
Posts: 5780

Posted at:
12:55 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 31/7-2009
Status: Online

  Very curious with what you will achieve MW! :)
  
  Enjoy responsibly,
  Yuri
PEKAC B
Posts: 3480

Posted at:
13:09 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  I do not think it makes a lot of sense to use this role in one day races unless you want to be a guinea pig.
  
  In tours, it is rather a tactical option which may allow you to eliminate the some of the GC contenders weaker in climbing from the top spots in the CL stages. However, it reduces the chance you will win the stage at the same time when your captain loses some support.
  
  I would also prefer a solution allowing 90 CL / 80 DH team mate finishing ahead of 65 CL and 30 DH captain regardless the later one has some CL support in races like Munich - Kempten but the engine does not work like that.
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
13:17 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I am doing double TF with an SD in Alpe d'Huez tomorrow. Not because I think it makes sense, but it is fun to try something new :)
  
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
13:19 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  Thanks Yuri:)
  
  Well I don't mind to be a guinea pig here because my chances can only improve I believe by trying it out in a one day race.
  So if someone has another idea how to use the Super D. in this race to see the difference let me know and I can change the tactics.
  Otherwise the goal is Conceicao has the highest cl+dh to be the captain and Campos with his 98cl could be a interesting Super Domestique.
  That is the thought I had.
  
  
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
13:21 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  I think it is better to follow Snowbear here:)
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
13:26 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I am in a terrible shape going into Alpe d'Huez, so I would need super legs for something good to happen anyway. My 6 best team mates are on TF recharge and I am in the middle of a team reconstruction so TS sucks. So will it give it a shot.
  
  Captain: Harold Coosemans - Two time winner (the two times he hasn't had off days or mechs)
  
  SD: Rikard Grindheim
Ello Ello
Posts: 1473

Posted at:
13:46 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Online

  As Honzas said, will be interesting to see how it plays out in tours where more TT focused riders have succeeded. Volta is just around the corner and traditionally it requires a lot of TT, maybe we will see some use of the super domestique there to try and give more CL based riders a slightly better chance
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
14:30 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  EDIT: SOME OF MY ASSUMPTIONS WERE WRONG IN THIS POST (THANKS ABK FOR ENLIGHTENING ME).
  
  
  Apart from the relative weakness of a SD-TM in comparison to other TM-roles, I've another concern. Even if the SDs prove to be of better help in certain heavy-CL-race-profiles, then wouldn't both TT-captain and CL-captain profit in the same way? So how would that make a difference?
  
  Is the amount of seconds you loose in a stage depending on your final position in the stage? Suppose the TT-er ends up 10th in the old system and loosing 40 seconds to the winner, but looses 6 positions due to 6 SDs beating him...
  In cups that would evidently help, as losing position would mean losing points, but how about in tours? Would it mean the timeloss would be different to the winner?
  
  As far as Im concerned, I cannot grasp the logic, but enlighten me.
  Suppose the SD is better help than the PS in the climbing stage given a certain race- and riderprofile, then both TT-captain and CL-captain would use him and it shouldn't matter in timedifference even if the TT-er ends a bit lower in the ranking.
  Suppose the SD is lesser help than the PS in any race: the TT-r might loose some positions but the timegap might be even smaller if the winner used a SD...
  
  
  @Alpine @MW
  I wonder how you would evaluate your results: what kind of positions for both riders (given normal legs and no issues) would make you think SD is beneficial over other TM-roles? Are you aiming for higher result of captain or of SD?
  
  

Last edit by Silenzio at 15:13 11/2-2021.

ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
14:36 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  Time loss is only based on the position, so 10th always losses the same number of seconds, regardless of how close the actual performance is. Thus the idea is to make it easier for TMs to place above the bad climbing captains. If a TT captain uses an SD who is a good climber I guess the SD might just end up ahead of the captain.
Team AEK
Posts: 851

Posted at:
14:50 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  “wouldn't both TT-captain and CL-captain profit in the same way? So how would that make a difference?”
  Since the CL captain (I guess you mean him as the SD) is the stronger climber, it’s quite possible that he finishes in front of The TT captain.
  
  I think we have to see it in action before drawing any real conclusions. Nick probably did test runs in different scenarios to see how it plays out and he was happy with the results.
  
  I see the role as a nice addition. But for the presented problem with TT riders, it’s more of a workaround, since the real problem are the time gaps and how teammates and leadouts work with the fixed support they offer.
  
  
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
15:09 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  @ABK. " Time loss is only based on the position" Thanks, that was what I didnt know and makes it logical for me.
ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
15:23 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  Yeah, that is an important part of the puzzle.
  The problem is basically this:
  Captains almost always finish ahead of TM/LOs from other teams regardless of how suit the profile is.
  Finishing high means they don't lose a lot of time.
  In TTs Climbing captains will finish low and lose a lot of time.
  
  The proposed solution here is to allow TMs to finish above bad captains so they lose more time. Another way to solve the problem would be to make time loss based on actual performance but that would be a much bigger change.
  
  This is not really a problem in 1-day races as there are fewer unsuited captains and it doesn't matter who finishes 10th or 15th
  
  
  
Navarone Cycling Team
Posts: 1377

Posted at:
15:25 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 26/7-2011
Status: Offline

  indeed if the engine did something like a quadratic difference instead of a linear weighed addition for the calculation of individual performance, and the 10% team mate contribution were included before the quadratic factor, I assume most of these issues would resolve themselves alone, at least for the climbing, sprinting and hill races. not sure if/how this could break sprinting races though (we would also get more realistic race results in the hillsprints, since we would see sprinters without hills being dropped "in the last hill"). I guess at least we'd see the same cookie-cutter sprinter not winning all races, and instead FR/TQ profiles be more relevant.
  
  to adjust time gaps in TTs to not rely on positions, even a simple multiplicative factor on the performance figure should work. but then the issues with the weight of the daily form with respect to the normal races would arise. An easy fix would be to divide by 5 the factor just for the TT races.
  
  (haven't seen the engine code, so all of this operates on assumptions)
peddelen
Posts: 1727

Posted at:
19:32 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  Double post with a 7 hour interval

Last edit by peddelen at 20:23 11/2-2021.

ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
19:45 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  Your second best rider might be pretty good and in TF. So you could try to get them both in the top 10, or keep two riders close in case one has an off day. The idea is that unlike a co-captain, the SD will actually help first captain but his performance will also be reduced-
  
  I do agree that it is probably not the end all solution. I have mostly tried to describe the intention. I guess it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
  
  I assume not just changing this performance drop is that it would change the engine too much. Making TMs in general perform less bad would seem to be a good solution.
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
19:55 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  @Silenzio
  
  I chance the plan a litte.
  Engalychev will be captain because of his bad ts.
  Campos will be the SD.
  
  For me the test is to see what happens with the ts of Campos and if Campos will finish right after or before my captain.
  
  I think Engalychev can finish around spot 12. Campos as tm will finish outside the top 25.
  I'am curious if Campos will jump over my captain or stays with him.
  
  What it means for tours I have no idea. I usualy hunt stages and since a short time I focus on YC and have no idea about the time gaps, where they take place from and untill what place.
  I need a mentor I guess:)
  
  I don't have a great chance in Alpe d`Huez Classic so for my team a good moment to test it.

Last edit by DeRodeLantaarn at 19:57 11/2-2021.

Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
20:07 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

   @Alpine @MW
   I wonder how you would evaluate your results: what kind of positions for both riders (given normal legs and no issues) would make you think SD is beneficial over other TM-roles? Are you aiming for higher result of captain or of SD?
  
  ----
  
  I definitely do not think it is beneficial over a normal TM. My evaluation was really that I have too many strong climbers to fit in TF periods for them in a season. For as long as I have had Cooseman he has been the biggest mathematical favorite going into Alpe d'Huez, but he has only had normal/good legs twice without a crash or mech. He won it both times. This season I have low TS, weak team mates and he is getting old - so a win is unlikely without luck. That luck is basically super legs combined with off days or crashes for top favorites. Grindheim is another guy that can pull it off in similar circumstances, so I am basically just doubling my chances for super legs. Which we all know is very unlikely to happen and my guess is I finish 7 and 14 instead of maybe 3.
  
Australian Warlord
Posts: 1931

Posted at:
22:45 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Offline

  If the purpose of this is to fix the tour situation where TTers with little climbing skill can be made captain and finish around 15th on high climber stages to win climbing tours because how the system calculates time gaps on stages; then the CL benefit has to be above 10%, otherwise it's useless for its intended goal, because there's only room in a tour for one true captain if you're seeking to win a tour; and therefore wouldn't be a viable selection for an individual team.
  
  The only way it can work, is if the SD benefit to the captain was something like 14%CL & 7%DH. This is overall still lower than the TM 10% CL-DH-HL-FL, but is enough to select on high mountain stages, and teams can't spam it because only one SD can be used in a stage.
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
22:50 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  That would be an ideal way of it working Rustgold. I would even say a bit higher than 14/7 would have been good. Also, there should simply be a cut off in climbing races, if your rider can't make a climbing score based on the strength of the peleton, he doesn't get any bonus from TMs. They should only be able to help if there is any hope :)
Millican
Posts: 269

Posted at:
23:35 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 22/4-2019
Status: Offline

  @snowbear did you know they make tow ropes for ultra endurance partner type events? I’m picturing 5 climbers harnessed like sled dogs towing a TTer up the hill...or at least that’s kinda how the TM system works...
Australian Warlord
Posts: 1931

Posted at:
23:48 11/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Offline

  With a springy bungy cord James.
  
  -----
  
  Another solution would be also to limit a TM/LO assistance to a maximum 10% of the leader's capabilities (minus team spirit of course).

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 23:55 11/2-2021.

Flanders Fields
Posts: 1490

Posted at:
10:09 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 20/5-2014
Status: Online

  Why not change the way time gaps are calculated ?
  
  Now it's linked to position which is unrealistic.
  
  To calculate a race outcome why not use the difference in the total number to calculate the time gap.
  
  Example (very simplistic but it's to give the idea):
  
  CL stage:
  
  CL 9 DH 8 HL 5 Others 0
  
  Rider A: 86 - 73 - 62
  Rider B: 50 - 32 - 28
  Rider C: 28 - 27 - 32
  
  Theoretic outcome with both rider have equal support, legs, etc:
  
  Rider A (774 + 584 + 310): 1668
  Rider B (450 + 256 + 140): 846
  Rider C (252 + 216 + 160): 628
  
  I would say the general time difference between the two in real life would be around maybe 10 mins (sprinters are usually at 20+ mins).
  
  So we take the difference between the two first totals 1668 - 846 => 822.
  
  And we say that this stage has a time gap of 1pt/sec so:
  
  Rider A: +0"
  Rider B: +13' 42"
  Rider C: +17' 20"
  
  So let's say that Climbing stages are 1 pt/sec, TT are 2 pts/sec, SP 300 pt/sec (rough example, needs to be determined by the profile of course, you could even go on like 0,9pt/sec and round it up).
  
  
ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
10:50 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  I think the current system makes sense for sprint stages, so you only have bonus seconds there.
  
  For other stages a performance based gap would definitely be an improvement but I suspect it would be a major change and rather prone to bugs.
Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 1347

Posted at:
13:25 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  It would be great one day to see a complete overhaul of how time gaps work. But I'm aware that it would be a big project and need a lot of work/testing etc.
  
  I'd also like to see bigger time penalties for the riders finishing at the back of the race. It doesn't make sense to me that an injured rider can still keep their time on gc through multiple stages. At Nederlandse last season one guy got injured on stage 2 and still managed a top 5 on gc.
  
  In real life, even on sprint stages, riders don't all finish together.
  
  I also feel that if you ride a stage on practise, you should lose time. GC riders in real life aren't able to simply cruise on sprint stages.

Last edit by Time Indaiatuba at 13:25 12/2-2021.

Team AEK
Posts: 851

Posted at:
13:34 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/9-2011
Status: Online

  In Nederlandse a leadout can pretty much keep his spot after a good TT without an injury. A more easy fix could be not just time won for the top 2/3 but maybe for the top 9 and better time gaps in the hilly stage.
ABK
Posts: 3629

Posted at:
13:48 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2010
Status: Online

  I guess a time loss for the bottom 20 riders in sprint stages could solve that, and would be quite realistic. Quite often a few riders will just roll over the line after working early or having joined the early break. An injured rider or on on practice will then lose some time and drop out of the GC.
Lokomotíva Zvolen
Posts: 869

Posted at:
14:41 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 23/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Even the introduction of DNF after a crash would be something realistic. And if it would be a problem for calculation, let the system assume that the contribution of a DNF rider is 0 in all skills.
  And what about "time limit" for stages? We know sprinters have problems with mountains...

Last edit by Lokomotíva Zvolen at 14:42 12/2-2021.

Team Orion 365
Posts: 121

Posted at:
14:47 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 24/10-2020
Status: Offline

  +1 to both ideas, but some riders crash and survive the rest of the stage, so maybe they should only DNF if they suffer and injury.
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
19:45 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  Alpe d`Huez Classic wrap up:
  
  DeRodeLantaarn
  Prediction: I think Engalychev can finish around spot 12. Campos as tm will finish outside the top 25.
   I'am curious if Campos will jump over my captain or stays with him.
  
  Result 6 Engalychev 9 Campos
  
  alpine
  Prediction: Which we all know is very unlikely to happen and my guess is I finish 7 (Coosemans) and 14 (Grindheim) instead of maybe 3.
  
  Result 7 Coosemans 20 Grindheim
  
  
  Evaluation:
  
  Captain score better than their SD in this case.
  Snowbears prediction was scary accurate.
  MWs prediction was a bit off: his riders performed better.
  
  Curious about the form of the day.
  
  Congrats both on the results!
  
  
  

Last edit by Silenzio at 19:47 12/2-2021.

DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 2463

Posted at:
20:07 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  Your team participated in Alpe d`Huez Classic. David Engalychev finished 6 th as your best rider. You earned 8.000 $.
  
  Eelco Oosterhof had super legs during the race. Luís Campos had good legs during the race. 16:01
  
  Campos good legs and Engalychev normal legs. That makes it a little bit difficult but Campos stayed behind his captain. I was wondering if he would jump over him.
  Further I wanted to know what Campos his ts would do. That stayed the same.
Alpine
Posts: 3038

Posted at:
20:50 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  Alpe d'Huez went pretty much as expected. Grindheim had an off day so dropped to 20.
Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 1347

Posted at:
20:55 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  Inderesting that the sd role can work well even in a classic. Obviously, it reduces your chance of winning the race overall, but if you're looking for points/money it's probably better than just using 1 captain (if you've got the right guys).
  
  I wonder what the difference might have been if mw had used those 2 riders as captains. Maybe something like 8th and 11th?
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 5425

Posted at:
21:34 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  I am very happy with my test result in Copa Andes. Nato didn't lose to anyone he shouldn't have lost to on the stage, and SD Gatto got 8th. Now the real fun experiment starts with the DH stage coming up.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 101

Posted at:
22:06 12/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Offline

  My first SD Unwin Treadwell was 9th in the Classico Carretera Austral, but I am wondering if captain Hagen Hunzberger might have been higher than 6th.
  
  
Velo Club Bored Man
Posts: 1179

Posted at:
11:23 13/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2009
Status: Offline

  Be interesting to hear how many SDs finished ahead of Captains...?
Fighting
Posts: 2454

Posted at:
11:36 13/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2013
Status: Offline

  My SD finished 5 places below my captain, in a HL race. Just tested it out there.
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 101

Posted at:
09:41 14/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Trying Wilhelm Bang as a SD on the Keelung - Wulai Falls
Alx4475
Posts: 81

Posted at:
13:00 14/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 24/5-2019
Status: Offline

  Selfoss - Hafnarfjordur (Div 5), my captain had a mechanical problem, and finished 7th, followed by my SD, 8th and without change in the TS
Lindfield Locknuts
Posts: 101

Posted at:
11:42 18/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/2-2020
Status: Offline

  Bang was 18th in the Keelung - Wulai Falls and the captain was 12th after a mechanical problem.
  
  Proving nothing.
Goege Team
Posts: 1224

Posted at:
20:09 19/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/7-2018
Status: Online

  I‘m not sure if I missed it, but I assume a WC provides as much help to the SD as to the CP?
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 3216

Posted at:
20:42 19/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  According to Nick 'gaining some benefit'. So I would say less than the captain.
Goege Team
Posts: 1224

Posted at:
07:23 20/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 15/7-2018
Status: Online

  True, that might be it.
  A SD benefits from a WB as much as a CP if I understood Nick correctly, that‘s why I thought there‘s a chance that he benefits from a WC too.
Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 3216

Posted at:
07:33 20/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  We will never know for sure I guess
paceuts
Posts: 1608

Posted at:
16:53 20/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 16/6-2018
Status: Offline

  I was under the impression that all riders benefit from the WC?
MrSjaakBraak
Posts: 776

Posted at:
17:07 20/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 4/1-2013
Status: Online

  I attempted to use Wouter van Summeren as super domestique in Eissh Downhill. Turns out that it really is a bad idea to use SD in downhill races. Better luck next time.
Rantanplan
Posts: 3074

Posted at:
21:08 20/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/12-2010
Status: Offline

  Not sure all riders SD benefits of a WB, but a SD should.
  
  I also had a trial on Swazi gold race, a hill race with CL as second skill needed, and it was a failure. My leader finished 11th and my SD 14th.
Team Formand United
Posts: 521

Posted at:
16:06 28/2-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/8-2018
Status: Offline

  Have tried the SD feature out maybe three or four times already.
  
  A nice idea perhaps in one of the races, where the captain won. The other times seemed quite bad with the results, off days etc.
royle
Posts: 579

Posted at:
11:50 3/3-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/6-2012
Status: Offline

  Tried the SD tactic for the first time at
  Ajaccio - Bastia div 2 race.
  Warringa the SD finished ahead of his captain (5th and 11th)
  Although Toller only had normal legs and Warringa was in TF. Would it be better to switch roles for next race together? What do you guys think?
Silenzio
Posts: 558

Posted at:
11:53 3/3-2021 GMT

Registered: 29/5-2020
Status: Online

  High wind, quite some FR and TQ in the profile didn't really make this race the ultimate fit for Peter and a bit better for Warringa in TF apparently.
  
  Depends a lot on raceprofile I think.
royle
Posts: 579

Posted at:
12:07 3/3-2021 GMT

Registered: 8/6-2012
Status: Offline

  Hmm yeah i should’ve looked into the profile a little more :/

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