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Upper Division Calendar fix
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
18:35 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  Over the past week, Llotyhy and me have been working on a large scale review of the OCM calendar in all divisions. The lower divisions have already seen races being added, but for Division 3 and up, we will give you all some more time tom plan ahead.
  The new calendar will be in effect starting from day 1 of the new season. All new races will have been added by then.
  The following changes will be made: (I will update this with more detail (which races on which day) when I have more time)
  
  Division 3
  
  - 10 races will be added, being:
  - 3 CL
  - 2 DH
  - 2 ODD
  - 1 HL
  - 1 TQ
  - 1 FR
  
  - 3 races will be asked to be moved (1 ALL, 1 DH, 1 SP)
  
  - 5 races will be asked to be removed (3 ALL, 2 TT)
  
  Overview of all the races added or (re)moved
  
  Day 5, 6, CL/DH/HL Cup, with a CL stage, a DH stage, and a HL stage (nations yet to be revealed. but already designed)
  Day 13, FR race added in Estonia
  Day 13, CL race to be removed
  Day 17, SP race, to be moved to Day 67
  Day 19, DH race added in Guatemala
  Day 28, DH race added in Algeria
  Day 48, DH race to be moved to Day 52
  Day 48, ODD race added in Indonesia
  Day 52, TQ race added in Liberia
  Day 52, ALL race to be removed
  Day 53, TT to be removed
  Day 53, CL race added in Mexico
  Day 58, ALL race to be removed
  Day 66, CL race added in Tanzania
  Day 67, ALL race to be removed
  Day 74, ALL race to be moved to Day 25
  Day 74, HL race added in Mongolia
  Day 79, ODD race added in Panama
  Day 87, CL race added in Kyrgyzstan
  
  
  Division 2
  
  - 7 new races will be added, being:
  
  - 3 CL
  - 2 DH
  - 1 SP
  - 1 TQ
  
  Overview of the races added
  
  Day 4, DH race in Pakistan
  Day 28, DH race in Vietnam
  Day 34, CL race in South Korea
  Day 39, SP race in Nigeria
  Day 42, CL race in Nepal
  Day 66, TQ race in Taiwan
  Day 86, 87, 88 HL cup, with a HL/CB stage, a SP stage, and a HL/CL stage (nations yet to be revealed but already designed)
  Day 88, CL race in Angola
  
  Division 1
  
  - 15 new races will be added, being:
  
  - 5 CL
  - 4 DH
  - 3 HL
  - 2 CB
  - 1 ODD
  
  Also note that a SP cup will also be added in Div1
  
  - 2 races will be asked to be moved to a different day (both SP)
  
  Overview of the races added or moved
  
  Day 1, new CL=HL race in Rwanda
  Day 3, new DH race in New Zealand
  Day 23, new DH race in Iran
  Day 24, new CL race in Macedonia
  Day 26, new ODD TT in Estonia (a CB+TQ>TT race)
  Day 35, SP race will be moved to day 27
  Day 35, new HL race in USA
  Day 44, new CB race in the Philippines
  Day 45, new DH race in Turkey
  Day 56-57, SP cup, consisting of a SP stage, a HL=SP stage and a TQ stage (Nation yet to be revealed, but already designed)
  Day 58, new CL race in Venezuela
  Day 62, new HL race in Canada
  Day 63, new DH race in Morocco
  Day 70, new CL>HL race in Slovenia
  Day 77, new CB race in Croatia
  Day 84, new CL>HL race in Bulgaria
  Day 88, new HL race in Bosnia and Herzegovina
  
  
  FAQ
  
  I can imagine that this raises some question, I'll try to answer some of them here already.
  
  Q: Why so many new races?
  
  We felt that a lot of divisions had problems with races filling up too quickly. One solution would be to allow more teams to sign-up, but after looking at the calendar closely, it was clearly noticeable that the issue was caused by gaps in the calendar, which is much more easily solved by adding races.
  
  Q: Why are there so much more CL/DH races added compared to SP/FR/TQ races?
  
  Climbing and Sprinting are the two main branches of this game. At the start of the game, a team gets to choose between climbing and sprinting. So it makes a lot of sense that these two branches should have equal opportunities to succeed.
  The current calendar heavily favored SP teams. In division 1, even without including 1.1, which has many SP races, there were 37 total SP/TQ/FR races, while there were only 27 CL/DH races.
  
  Q: Aren't there too many niche racing being added, which eliminates their niche status?
  
  While there are indeed a lot of (especially DH) races added that have a 'niche' specialization, there are still by far not enough of them for these specializations to be the sole focus of a Div1 team. Also, in am lot of these races, riders from a main specialization can still easily score. They just give more diversity on the calendar.
  
  Q: Who designed all these new races?
  
  Me and Llotyhy designed a lot of them, but we also got help from Nooky Lair of Team Oasis, Simon de Montfoort of AnnoDomini, Taavi of CC Est, Christian of Team Wonderdee, Alpine Cav of Alpine, Stephan von Bismarck of Sasol Leeus, and Mal of Tashkent Browncoats. I also took the liberty of stealing a few from the Tour design competition, so some of you might recognize one of your own.
  Also, if you would like a race of your own in the game, I can always put races into Div11, so feel free to send me your designs. Try to make them in countries that don't have a lot of races already though.
  
  Q: Are the new Cups taken into account in this process?
  
  Yes, they all have been given a place on the calendar, and they have also already been designed. Every division until division 8 will get one Cup. More on this will follow after the first edition of the Partyk Drozdowski Trophy Cup.
  
  Q: Will there be a review to see if the changes actually worked?
  
  Yes, Llotyhy will try to keep track of every race during the entire season to see how quick they fill up. Also, feel free to monitor it yourselves and keep us updated about any gaps in the calendar.
  
  Feel free to add any further questions!
  
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2






Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 13:12 10/2-2019.

Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
19:31 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Great work!
  
  Also looking forward to see one or two of mine in the game :)
DZWF
Posts: 686

Posted at:
19:46 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 10/8-2015
Status: Offline

  Thanks for all the work,. curious to see how it works out.
Team WonderDee
Posts: 5107

Posted at:
19:58 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
Status: Offline

  Good to see more HL races in 1st div, its one of the reason Hetland and my team never could stabilize in the top division. (Off course a better 2nd team would have helped too)
  
  And of course good work by you Don and Llotyhy.

Last edit by Team WonderDee at 20:05 20/1-2019.

CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
20:13 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
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  You guys forget, when equalising things, that climbers are competitive also for the GC and YC in most of the tours. GC gives points unlike SC. GC gives also much more prize money.
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
20:48 20/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  While that might be true, it is also true that even with the extra CL races, sprinters will still be have more races to score in. Remember that a Tour GC still scores less points that a normal race. And Nederlandse is also a big points scoring sprinters tour.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 20:55 20/1-2019.

Blues Racing
Posts: 275

Posted at:
00:17 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 6/8-2011
Status: Online

  What does ODD stand for?
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
00:29 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  Yeah, sorry, that's not a term other people than me and Llotyhy use. XD
  It means races with an extraordinary profile, like CB/CL races, or just very random profiles with no real speciality that fits it. They are meant to bring some variety into the calendar. The Div6 tour Odyssey of the Oryx is a very good example of a tour with multiple ODD stages.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Team Chili
Posts: 1190

Posted at:
00:53 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 4/3-2009
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  Great work Don and Lloythy.
  
  Obviously still #downwithdon
AusGo
Posts: 1469

Posted at:
03:49 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 21/7-2014
Status: Offline

  :O
  
  So many updates in less than a month :D
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
08:13 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Great with some calendar changes and truly thanks for developing the game! Going to be nice with some more climbers in the top of the riderranking. :D
  
  Don how much have the balance in top20 teamranking, and the relation between 1.1 and topdivision races been taken into the equation? Asking since you are mentioning Nederlaandse in correlation with the climbing tours. :)
Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
08:51 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
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  Just taking the rider rankings over the seasons into account, I think it appears to be fair to add some climbing races to 1.div. It has consistently been dominated by sprinters.
Andeby
Posts: 2009

Posted at:
09:54 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  Great work indeed! Will love to see some new and fresh races. Also balancing CL/SP gonna be great. Climbers being able to fight on the ranking with sprinters more consistently.
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
12:55 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  @Jonas
  
  We have taken 1.1 into account, but the main solution to compensate sprinting teams within the top-25 not being able to sign up for the biggest sprinting event is that the Sprinting Cup will have a Germany Tour style sign up.
  That should give those teams more of a chance to get a big prize and also score without having to drop.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
17:39 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
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  Don sounds great. But I think you misunderstood me :)
  
  It wasn't a compensation for NL I meant. I think the sprintcup is one to one with the Drozkowski cup, regarding SP/CL balance. :)
  
  I was more curious about the balance in the top25 regarding teamranking. Are any of the new cl/dh races 1.1 or are they all topdivisionraces?
  
  And does the 27 CL/DH races include GC in CL tours and the two CL TT's that are often dominated by normal climbers? :)
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
18:05 21/1-2019 GMT

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  Ah, I thought you were worried about the SP balance between 1 and 1.1, which was in favour of 1.1 in the old calendar.
  
  They are all Div1 races. Adding to Div1.1 is not something we felt was a useful tool for solving the issues with the calendar, we rather fixed the divisions themselves to keep things simpler. But of course we will look at if this might be needed or not.
  
  The 27 did not include the GC in the two climbing tours in Top Division, and neither did the GC of Nederlandse count for sprinters or that of Essex for hillers/tt'ers, or TvA for Cobblers. Tour stages were taken into account. Also, the 27 already included the new Droz Cup stages.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 18:11 21/1-2019.

NightmareChaos
Posts: 7196

Posted at:
18:29 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Offline

  Something is going on, oO
  I guess change is good
Mark Pro Team
Posts: 1265

Posted at:
23:15 21/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 1/12-2013
Status: Offline

  More Odd races please :)
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
07:56 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
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  Thanks Don. I had actually not thought about the inbalance between 1.1 and topdiv races. But of course it makes sence. NL being a huge factor.
  
  I think it's nice to have a calendar with equal oppertunities to score, for teams based around climbing and sprinting. :)
  
  I just thought about all 3 races. How do they weigh regarding climbers vs sprinters being able to score, and have they been part of the aquation?
  
  And downhill races I assume is counting as
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
08:09 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  DH races indeed count as CL races.
  ALL 3 races can be won by climbers and sprinters equally on paper, but I must be honest that I haven't done the research there.
  Of course if it turns out climbers have too much of an advantage after the changes, or TT'ers or Cobblers have too little races, we'll definitely make adjustments again.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
PEKAC B
Posts: 2570

Posted at:
09:42 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  Thanks, Don and others. Although I do not suffer with the lack of CL races, I like the change.
  
  Is there any chance to see schedule of the new races, how the next season calendar will look like?
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
10:20 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  @Honzas
  
  I will update this post with the full schedule when I have time to do it, which will probably be tomorrow. Been a bit busy the last few days, sorry!
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
PEKAC B
Posts: 2570

Posted at:
10:48 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  It is great, thank you!
tomba
Posts: 1022

Posted at:
14:04 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 20/4-2014
Status: Offline

  Looking forward to the new changes!
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
19:31 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  Updated with the details!
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
20:01 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Interesting. :)
  
  Curious about the motivation for those two SP races that was moved. Was the intention to deliberate make the SP calender weaker? Or to even out the SP calendar?
Team WonderDee
Posts: 5107

Posted at:
20:07 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
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  A HL cup in 2nd div, hopefully its active next season. :D
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
20:08 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  @Jonas
  Definitely not to make it weaker.
  They are both on days where there were already one or even two SP races, and the places where they are moved to were the biggest gaps between SP races in the calendar.
  
  @Christian
  
  Since it's planned on day 86-88, I hope it will already be active next season, since the Cups are planned to be added after the first edition of the Droz Cup.
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 20:09 22/1-2019.

Team WonderDee
Posts: 5107

Posted at:
20:11 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
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  Think about recharging Hetland, so would be good to know. Could be a target for him next season.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
20:14 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
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   "Day 17, SP race, to be moved to Day 67"
  
  Are you counting Ronde Van Limburg as a sprinting race? :) In my head it is a clone between a HL FR and HL SP race. It does slightly favours sprintoriented teams, but not more than all3 races favours climboriented teams which wasn't counted as climbing races.
  
   It would be interesting to see the list of which races that count as sprint and which that count as climbing.
  
  I think there are many races out there that are really hard to label as sprint or climbing.
  
  
  
  edit: forget this post, I misread the divisions :)
  

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 21:00 22/1-2019.

Team WonderDee
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Posted at:
20:16 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
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  @Jonas: Thats 3.div with day 17 to day 67
Jonas Pro Cycling
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Posted at:
20:19 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Ooops sorry. Thanks Christian :)
Schiavi di Don
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Posted at:
20:21 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
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  As for what counts as what, we kept it as simple as possible. In about 75% of the cases, the highest stat is the category we put it in. Exceptions are races in which there is more than 1 highest stat, in which case we looked at frequent winners. And of course TT's and ODD races can be different as well.
  
  Ronde van Limburg counts as a HL race btw. :)
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 20:21 22/1-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
20:52 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Don I see the sprintraces moved as weakening the calendar. I'd like to give some constructive feeedback. :)
  
  Junin is moved to day 27. Yes there is a little gap. But that gap is used to recharge DP for an exhausted squad and maybe even get room for a TS race. On day 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 26 and 29 there is sp or sphl oriented races. this is the most busy time at year for sprintteams. So adding a sprintrace day 27 is just adding to the exhaustion of the long streak from day 17-29.
  
  Junin day 35 was used for hillsprinter to be able to score points and still peak TF in Vuelta day 41.
  
  Poznan day 34 has 12 dp loss. So it is harder to do the same from there.Possible but you need to skip Paris on day 34, because you have only 4 day RB to Poznan. You would probably have to practice on day 35 in the new race now instead of being able to score in Junin. Adding a pure HL race on day 35 I guess is motivated by the exact same dynamic for the hillers entering Vuelta. For Junin both sprint and hill oriented teams could go head to head on day 35 and still peak TF in Vuelta.
  
  I do agree that you sometimes had to deselect either Poznan day 34 or Llerida day 37. But now you will have to deselect one of Rouen day 26, junin day 27 or Paris day 29 instead. So race moved from busy part to another busy part, now it is just harder to do a TF preperationrun while still scoring points.
  
  
  Sicilia day 71 is used for sprinters to TF race while still compete for GT in TF. You can go Helsinki in TF day 65 have a 5 days break to 90DP, go Sicilia in TF and still be competable in GT SC with 80DP in TF. You could also choose to skip GT and go Wellington day 70 with 90DP92RS and Sicilia day 71 with 80DP/99RS and have a 5 days RB to hit Lubeck with full DP. That's one race for free you are missing out on.
  
  
  
  For these two races there are very important in the greater sequences and are fitting good into a greater planning. It is not only about evening out the sprintraces over the whole season that makes a good calendar. Sometimes some races has a very important role or offers a great oppertunity to have a run. Actually I think the sprintcalender was pretty well coordinated. Gaps are needed in order to restitute and raise TS.
  
  From my point of view and experience, with finding all the advantages in the SP calender possible, the move of those two races represents a substantial weakening of the SP calendar.
  
  If the purpose was to make it better. I hope you will reconsider moving them. And get some more input from the sprintteams if you find it necessary to move races. Personaly I don't see the need as said. :)
  
  That being said, thanks for the hard work. This is meant as constructive feedback. I see all the good intentions behind :)
  
  
Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
21:04 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  ...the new race on day 35 should still work for a hillsprinter Jonas ;)
  
  When that is said, I am not sure why the HL race isn't just added to day 27 and Junin kept as is

Last edit by Alpine at 21:09 22/1-2019.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
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Posted at:
21:07 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  It is good to see feedback like this, because I of course don't have experience on the ins and outs of the SP calendar myself.
  I guess the moves might not be necessary here. I'll have a second look at it.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
21:56 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Thanks both. Curious about the new race on day 35 now :) If its kinda similar to Junin with lowish DP loss, it would of course be status quo.
  
  Looking again I can see a race working on day 27. There is a gap there yes.
  
  Biggest hole in SP topdiv calendar is between day 76 and 84, with only one sprintoriented race inbetween those days, that arent 1.1 races. Quite ironic day 76 would be the best day to add a sprintrace for a team with a two captain strategy. If Sicilia stays. For a one captain strategy it would be anywhere inbetween day 76 and 83.
  
  Sicilia on day 71 is a vital race.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
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Posted at:
22:00 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  Yeah, sorry, I would share all the details, but it takes a lot of time which I don't have. But any questions on any specific race profile can be asked through pm and I'll try to answer them.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Mark Pro Team
Posts: 1265

Posted at:
22:56 22/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 1/12-2013
Status: Offline

  Personally I would like to see a semi-dynamic calendar, except for the WC races. The current calendar classics, normal races and tours are divided into 8 parts based on race days (1-11, 12-23, 24-35, etc.). Each race will be randomly assigned a day within that part (also evenly). So a race now on race day 10, could become day 11 in season 2, but also day 1. After each section of 11 days the new semi-random calendar will be drawn for next season. This makes planning and timing topform much more interesting. Also you could be unlucky with the calendar and have to make the best of it. Low dp + a race vs High dp + no race decisions are typical management type of decisions and this is were you can excel as a team.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
07:34 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Having gotten the profile on new HL race on day day 35, I still think it's best to leave Junin on day 35 as well and both Wellington and Sicilia on day 70 and 71.
  
  The HL race on day 35 is quite interesting and odd, but still suits classic hillclimbing squads best.
  
  And if I were to add a sprintoriented race i would put it on day 76. Alternatively on day 77 or 78.
Australian Warlord
Posts: 974

Posted at:
08:36 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Nothing wrong with a calendar that's not perfectly even across the season, else why not just have a repeating ten day schedule.
Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
08:38 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  I tend to agree with Rustgold here to be honest, even though Jonas' arguments are solid. A bit of a shake up from old patterns without changing everything like Mark suggests isn't too bad.
Flanders Fields
Posts: 1198

Posted at:
09:15 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 20/5-2014
Status: Offline

  Even if I'm not a Div 1 team, I am for filling the gaps in the calendar.
  
  I don't need a 5 or 6 day gap to raise TS, I have a system which makes me competitive every sprint race I ride, without having to put my whole sprintteam on BA. I haven't put my whole sprintteam on BA since 2 or 3 seasons now.
  
  + teams who often miss tours and don't plan out like Jonas does will have some more chances to take some points and money because other teams would have to plan differently.
  
  
  I'm against Mark's suggestion because that would mean I'd have to change my whole Excel sheet every 3 months, where I have the full calendar of the top 5 divisions and mark my races per categorie.
Navarone Cycling Team
Posts: 282

Posted at:
10:27 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 26/7-2011
Status: Online

  Mark's suggestion would leave the game very open and interesting, but IMO to do this you need 2 things that we don't have: a stable division system (if you enter a division, you stay in it for enough time to let you make plans - 45 days?), and some rest at the end of the season (days without racing, etc.)
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
12:42 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  All new races (excluding cups) from before Day 64 have been added, there is one where something went wrong, the Div1 Venezuela one, so that one will be deleted and then added again soon.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
PEKAC B
Posts: 2570

Posted at:
13:01 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Offline

  Thanks again, Don.
  
  It gives some nice races combination possibilities, let´s look how it works in reality.
Nobodies
Posts: 175

Posted at:
15:17 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 30/3-2013
Status: Offline

  There seems to be an error with this race
  http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/?page=Race&race=Collado+de+C%C3%B3ndor it has an all 0 profile
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
15:25 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  That's correct, I mentioned that in my previous post.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
NightmareChaos
Posts: 7196

Posted at:
18:10 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/3-2011
Status: Offline

  With these handful of new trophies to come we can name these, A cup, B cup, C cup all the way to DD cup
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
18:28 23/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Maybe you can design the DD cup?
Sasol Leeus
Posts: 384

Posted at:
14:11 24/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/5-2012
Status: Online

  this is gonna be exciting.. Well done Don!

Last edit by Sasol Leeus at 14:11 24/1-2019.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
10:12 25/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  One more move, since we overlooked a DH race somewhere. Chennai - Pondicherry will move to day 53.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
21:26 25/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  I already mentioned few days ago in other thread, there was no sprinting races available to sign in div1. Now I am in div2 (as a result of latter). And guess what, I could sign:
  
  3 CL races
  3 CB races
  1 HL race
  1 ITT
  1 all-round race
  0 sprinting race.
  
  This party sucks.
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
21:52 25/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  The fun thing is that there is actually a TQ race going to be added in Div2 right in this period. Meanwhile, no other races are added in the same period. And if it turns out next season there is still a gap, there will be another sp or fr or tq race there.
  
  Div1 had a classic which fills quickly, so it might indeed be good to put another race in that period. I'll have a look at that.
  
  Edit: The SP Cup will be right in front of it. So all should be fine.
  
  
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 21:55 25/1-2019.

CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
21:56 25/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  Good and thanks for reply!
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
20:54 27/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  I saw the edit now. SP CUP will be for who, what ranking? I also read it is day 56-57. This is ten days before the period I talk about.
  
  Lack of SP races is only one part of my critics. Calendar in this period is biased.
  
  See the two CL races, they are not even filled up:
  Bielsko Biala - Zakopane - 7 empty places
  Drakensberg Challenge - 5 empty places.
  
  Changes you have made are biased.
  

Last edit by CC Est at 20:56 27/1-2019.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
01:35 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  I find it truly disappointing that you feel the need to personally attack me and Llotyhy.
  We have put over 60 hours of our unpaid free time into this. That doesn't mean we're right on everything and you can't have criticism. But it does mean you can at least have a normal discussion without calling us biased. I have tried to explain the choices made as well as possible, and it's fine if you disagree with them, but that does not mean I haven't thought about it from outside of my own frame. Especially considering the time spent on it.
  
  As I said before, the whole calendar fix will be reviewed over the upcoming season. So if you are proven to be right in your critique, we will fix it . But at the moment, I do not see the need based on my own view on it. Everyone is free to disagree on how I view it right now and many of you probably know better. But that's why we are giving it a season to have a proper look at the impact.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 02:23 28/1-2019.

Australian Warlord
Posts: 974

Posted at:
02:30 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Don had written that changes would be reviewed in a season's time. So, if there were CL or SP races in divs 1-2 that didn't fill (particularly when a Div8 race on the same day is full), then I'm sure it would be reviewed. There's no conspiracy between CL & SP.
Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
07:35 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  I don't think the game should automatically addapt to too many sprinters by adding more races. These things will balance out. Working to get the schedule itself balanced like Don and Llothy has done is great. If there are room in the CL races, go get a climber.
  
  My only complaints are from personal taste. I think it is way overkill to add four DH races to a calendar that already had too many. It happens now and then that a stage or race in real life is settled on the downhill, but that is mostly random. There are no events where downhill ability is perceived to be the most important going into the race. I was fine with it being a peculiar niche, but this step away from realism is just too much. Also, a second CB time trial was a strange decision.
  
  Lastly I think the game lacks races that mirror climbing stages in real life. Many of the HL races have that stat as much more important than any other, that should be the case to an even stronger degree for CL in my opinion.
  
  All in all though, great work guys and happy to see the updates!

Last edit by Alpine at 07:42 28/1-2019.

Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
07:55 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  We added a lot of CL races with a high CL profile and low(er) DH/HL, precisely because of that reason. :) I completely agree with that point.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
08:03 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Don he might have meant biased towards CL. At least that is how I undestood what he wrote. I didn't read it as you guys are bieased, which I neither think as well. :)
Australian Warlord
Posts: 974

Posted at:
08:11 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Out of current 23 Div 1 races with HL=6+
  
  4 x CL=6+
  9 x CL=3+
  = 13 total
  
  6 x SP=6+
  12 x SP=3+
  = 18 total
  
  Only 9 HL races don't have CL or SP valued at 5+, 2 not at 4+, and none below a 3. As such, maybe instead of asking where are the HL-CL races, a fairer question might be where are the pure HL races, if such a creature exists (which it quite possibly doesn't)?
  
  Btw: Yet to appear are the new Div 1 races
   Day 70, new CL>HL race in Slovenia
   Day 84, new CL>HL race in Bulgaria
   Day 88, new HL race in Bosnia and Herzegovina
  
  Note, there are also 25 Div 1 race with CL=6+ & HL=4+ (compared to 8 at HL=6+ & CL=4+), so a majority of CL/HL races do have CL as the more significant focus.

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 08:15 28/1-2019.

Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
08:30 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  @ Rustgold: I think this misrepresents the picture somewhat. Most of those HL races have either FR or TQ at 5, if SP is not at 5 and are therefor counted as HLSP races, like for example York - Manchester, Glasgow - Dundee and Stage 5 Vuelta.
  
  We added races in the HLSP variety as well. Hills of the 216 is a 00835050, one of the stages of the SP Cup is a 41767060 and the Bosnian race on Day 88 will even be a 33832040.
  
  So I think your concerns have been adressed in this update. If we prove to be mistaken we will of course revisit that category. :)
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
08:35 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  Well. I said the changes you have made are towards biased calendar. Which is a quite different thing, what you wrote.
  
  I don't think it is good idea to kill the critics by modifying oponent words. This is another example: http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/forum/announcements/353324
  
  I never said that sprinters have to win the sprinting classification all the time in all the tours in this thread. Like I never wrote here you two persons are biased.
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
08:38 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  @ Alpine Cav: I agree with your sentiment on DH-races btw. I also think it's overrepresented now, but it's not a love for DH-races or something that brought us to that decision. In lower divisions, especially Div 4, there are lots and lots of DH-races, and I'm not talking about the CL/DH races that almost exclusively exist in Div 1, but actual DH races, like five races with 9 DH and CL not higher than 5-6 in Div 4 alone.
  
  What this does is create an incentive for (newer) teams to focus on DH-teams, because clearly there are a lot of races to score points in those divisions. Then when those teams reach higher divisions there's a sudden drop in races available for them and it even ended on 4 in Div 1, which is probably a reason to sell all your downhillers completely. Since we didn't want a specialty that's only useful in lower divisions, we decided to add a few DH races. It's still only 8, which is still lower than almost every other division even though Div 1 has the most races, so it's not like the calendar is suddenly flooded with DH-races. :)

Last edit by Hog Bay CT at 08:38 28/1-2019.

Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
08:44 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  @ Taavi: After all the changes there will be 36 CL/DH races in Div 1 and 4 more in 1.1/1.2. There will still be 37 SP/FR/TQ races in Div 1 and 10 more in 1.1/1.2. So still comfortably more SP/FR/TQ, even after adding 9(!) CL/DH races.
  
  There's no bias here. It's clear from the number of races and the type of riders in the top of the classification that the calendar was heavily favouring sprinters compared to climbers. We wanted to equalize that somewhat, that's it.
  
  And once again, I'll monitor the whole thing next season and if it turns out this somehow makes it worse or not better we will be happy to take another look at it come Season 49.
Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
11:21 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Just to clarify, what I meant is that there should be some races that are 9-1-3-2 etc.
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1849

Posted at:
11:32 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Yeah, I got you. Day 88 div 2 will be 81240030 for example and I also particulary like Lima - Ticlio Pass in Div 4, which has 90130010. We've added a few of those races and it's certainly worth examining if we need more, thanks. :)
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
19:03 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  A little input from me. :) Firstly I am pro changes towards a more balanced calendar and agree that the calendar is biased towards sprinting teams. And secondly thanks for all the good and hard work you guys puts into developing the game for the better.
  
  I think though, it is not as black and white as only counting SP/FR/TQ versus CL/DH races, and conclude they are equal when they have the same amount of races.
  
  I think that there are more hillraces and odd races that favours climbers than sprinters. There are also all 3 races, more tour GC's and more CL tt's that should be taken into consideration. Basically I think that climbbased teams can have a variaty of riders than can score in a greater amount of races that are not only CL/DH. This is less the case for SP teams.
  
  It would be really nice to see the list of 37 sp and 27 Cl races. Can it be revealed?
  
  In general I am a fan of making changes gradually, rather risking overdoing it and rolling back some of the changes. As with the experience thing. It causes too much disturbance in the competitive flow, in my opinion. Could it be considered to add those races over a period of three seasons?
  
  This will give better time for teams to adapt,and we can have an ongoing discussion and evaluation as a community. So it can be changes we have developed more together as a community.
  Doing it gradually will give us more time, to have an even better idea of the balance of the calendar.
  
  It's like cooking a good meal and adding salt. Rather put a teaspoon at a time and taste than a handful and hope it's not too much :) ish
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
19:17 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  Unfortunately I can't reveal the list without putting hours of work into making it outside of our spreadsheets that contain information that shouldn't be released yet.
  
  But I see no evidence of HL races favouring climbing teams myself. It's pretty balanced between hl/sp and hl/cl races. ALL races also should not favour CL teams too much, because their only upside is that tm's contribute FR. But a lot of CL teams sign up for them because they have no better alternative. So more CL riders win them. But this is based on my personal experience, so no hard facts either.
  
  Edit:
  Gradual change is something I usually prefer as well. However, in this case, I prefer to try out the entire package as a whole. It would be incredibly hard to see a difference between gradual changes.
  Also, I don't believe that the community is ever going to agree on something like this. So that is why I didn't involve a democratic process here. Also, it could not have developed by the community, because the amount of time it takes to fully review a calendar is not something that gets better the more people are involved. It would have taken ages. And since it was a long while since anything was changed, it was about time for something to be changed.
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 19:24 28/1-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
19:56 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Thanks for your answer and I respect your standpoint. :)
  
  Analysing the calendar is big work, with many different opinions, I agree. I will cook my request down to one single point. The competative flow.
  
  Adding 5 CL, 4 DH and 3 HL races, that mostly suits CL based teams, to the calendar is a big mouthfull in just one seasonshift.
  
  A very rough breakdown of the pointdistribution:
  -Each race contains 840 points won
  -12 races x 840 points is 10.080 points
  -Presuming that 20 of the 50 topdiv teams are climbbased, it gives roughly 500 pts pr team.
  
  Those points might not be distributed evenly throughout the division. Topteams could take more than 500 points extra next season. Exactly how much would be guessing. But competing with teams that gets 500+ points extra, is quite a gamechanger for nonclimbased teams throughout the division.
  
  Announced roughly 30 days before implemented, gives litttle to no time to adjust. I expect it to have a huge impact on the competative flow. This is the mainreason I am asking for the changes to be gradually. To give all teams a fair change to adapt. :)
  
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
21:45 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  @Hog Bay
  
  If you read carefully, I referred to the concrete problems in the certain periods in div2 and div1. Also I have reported to Valparaiso problem in other thread, where climbers not only get GC, but they are also much in stronger position also in SP. These are concrete cases I have addressed. So far without result!
  
  Talking about the SP vs CL races overall. I guess it depends on the person who counts (I gave my best with the limited time in excel), but as it stands now I found 35 SP+TQ+FR races and 38 races, where climbers should perform (div1). There are another 2 TTs, where climbers can perform and 2 DH races, where they can do good as well. I get the score 42 vs 35 for climbers. Adding here GC in most of the tours, I get CL-teams are preferred. Maybe not CL-riders, but CL-teams yes.
  
  The question is why such abrupt change you have made can be done so rapidly while for the problems I have referred (which would be just small adjustments comparing to the changes you have introduced) we need to wait for another season? Cannot you see conflict here?
  
  And I definitely agree with arguments provided by Jonas.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
22:21 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  @Taavi
  
  To your question as to why this can happen quickly while other things can't I have a very simple answer. I can add races without Nick, but I can't move them, or change SC's, or change anything at all without Nick.
  So it's not that this is more important, it's that this is possible.
  
  @Jonas
  
  You do make a fair point. 30 days is a bit short. But it is also the same for every manager. Every manager will have to adapt. And while it might not be ideal to do it like this, I preferred it over postponing the changes, because I do not know if I would have had the time to make them in a season from now. It's volunteer work, so unfortunately I am also bound to my own time schedule.
  I prioritized the need for the game to get out of it's standstill to giving teams more time to adapt. Because in the end, they will still adapt. In the worst case, a team might not do as well for one or two seasons because of it, while others will do better. But eventually people will get used to it with or without more time to prepare.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Comfius
Posts: 1253

Posted at:
22:31 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Offline

  I think the impact is going to be low. The are almost all other races types.
  Only the DH races are for the true DH teams. There were no race with a dh above 7 now there are 5.
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
22:48 28/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  @Don
  
  Well. The explanation makes sense for the SC. But for the period I referred, one can add there 1-2 races after the details I have provided.
  
  No comments on 42 vs 35 races towards climbers?
  
  I definitely cannot agree the change is same for every manager. Jonas has provided the numbers, how remarkably this change will alter competition.
  
  And in worst case some might quit the game I am afraid.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
09:15 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  Well, we provided the numbers as well. And I already answered to Jonas's numbers. We seem to disagree at what a CL race is and what a SP race is. And I think you would agree with me that SP+FR+TQ races are not the only ones where a SP team can score either. So the 35-42 is not really a fair comparison based on the information you give about it.
  And yes, I could have added races, but once again, we seem to disagree on the necessity of them. And it's not that I haven't listened to people suggesting changes when I realised I had overlooked something. I can't listen to everyone suggesting a change. But I can promise that this period will be reviewed.
  
  Edit: If people quit the game because others can now do better, while they still have the same amount of points and money making opportunities, then it's all them. This calendar change hasn't taken any bread from anyone in these divisions. So if a manager can't stand that other teams get an equal chance suddenly, well, it's not my problem.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 09:17 29/1-2019.

Andeby
Posts: 2009

Posted at:
09:55 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  An increase in climbing races has been long overdue. DH will for sure have some synergies, but counting them together as one is just wrong. You can compare it to hillsprints. Sure sprinters can do well and yes, also use the same support riders, but generally the more specialized riders will be better overall.
  
  The implementation of the new races will have a big impact on DHers. And now the best DH-teams will considering wanting to be in top div, rather than slumbering in Zyte.
  
  How ppl in general can be hostile towards good changes is beyond me. Sprinting has been the dominating genre of ocm since I started playing this game. Giving CL a chance to compete on level terms is more than welcomed and shouldnt be held back on. And while 30 days isnt alot, stalling on changes seems pretty darn stupid if you ask me. We've been requesting changes and updates since ever while Nick has been busy with his personal life. Now that things are finally happening, we should all fucking rejoice.
  
  Worst thing that can happen is that we'll find out there is a couple more SP-races needed and then they will be made and implemented. OH FUCKING NO!
  
  That said, all changes usually happen with a span like this. It gets announced, then it gets implemented the next season. This might be the most fun change in a while, but nowhere near the biggest impact. There will always be someone on the better side of things after an update and someone on the worse side of things. Just like life in general. Adapt.
  
  @Don and Llotyhy: Bravo!
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
10:14 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  OK, you disagree of necessity of them and that's it. Without any argumentation. There is your opinion and wrong (my) opinion. Great. No reply expected.
Andeby
Posts: 2009

Posted at:
10:24 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  Don gave you all the numbers. If you want them repeated to you, im sure he can tell you again.
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
10:28 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  You go back and check my numbers. I have posted them 21:26 25/1-2019 GMT +1. Did Don write numbers regarding my post? Where?
Andeby
Posts: 2009

Posted at:
10:39 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  oh sry. it was llotyhy who gave the numbers Posted at:
  08:44 28/1-2019 GMT +1
  my mistake
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
10:59 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  Well these are general numbers. I addressed concrete problem in concrete period. And the only answer is "disagree on necessity". That's it.
  
  Anyway, about the general numbers you cited. I got other numbers. They should provide the list, how they got he numbers. At the moment these are just numbers without prove. Anyway the problem I addressed and wanted to be solved is above there. In principle I am not against changing the calendar in such large extent. The problem for me is that some small suggestions comparing to the big change, are not taken into account. Although I have provided the concrete prove.
  
  But then again, this is all just my opinion. And since I am not the one who decides, it all does not matter at all. At least latter I learnt well from here. So let's end the discussion, it is useless for the reason I just mentioned.
Andeby
Posts: 2009

Posted at:
11:58 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Online

  About that concrete problem. Adding more races is the perfect solution. Generally, sign-ups in top div have been extremely fast this season. Annoyingly so. Need to plan weeks at a time. Also, a single injury will screw you over superbad. I havent really experienced noticed a big difference in CL/SP-signups, but in that particular period, signup for Helsinki is always 1 or 2 days. This often results in a domino-effect as teams make sure they dont miss the next one if they missed Sinki. We see this domino-effect every season after worlds where all teams are starved for racing.
  
  Anyways. Adding more CL-races (also DH to some extent) will hopefully diversify top div even more to make teams evenly motivated to start a CL-team compared to a SP-team. Maybe even DH-teams will take a spot in top div making more space for others.
  
  As you only have so much DP and space in ones team, adding more races is the best way to deal with intense sign-ups.
Team WonderDee
Posts: 5107

Posted at:
12:25 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
Status: Offline

  Talking from a HL team point of view: Before this update, there was no good idea to promote to 1st div. Due to the lack of pure HL races.
  
  Agree with Andeby in his post 09:55. He is spot on.
  
  Great work with the calender!
Australian Warlord
Posts: 974

Posted at:
13:07 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Generally, surely whether there's too many or too few of CL, or SP, will be determined by how quickly the races fill, and the health of the major cyclists entering. I'm sure Don & Llotyhy & Nick are able to look at the races over the next season or two and make adjustments, just as they're doing here.
  
  Of course longer term in secondary types of races, cyclist depth will be partly determined by potential income & race availability, but that really isn't much of an issue for the primary types of races (CL & SP).

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 13:09 29/1-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
18:11 29/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  First of all I want to say that I truly appreciate that we can have this debate, in a polite and friendly manner. I think OCM has evolved on that point, and that makes me happy.
  
  Secondly I wan't to say again, so no one is in doubt, that I am for the changes and think it is good to give more opportunities to the climbing teams. I also am deeply impressed with the work put in by the ones taking the initiative, and think it is so great that we have somebody carrying the game into the future. Thanks!
  
  Reading alle these comments makes me curious. Everytime there has been big changes, this debate has been there. Which I find good but also quite odd. I am starting to suspect that the managers don't see this game as being about the same.
  
  So I am curious about how you see the game. :)
  
  I see it as a competition about being the best at a selfchosen goal. That goal could be:
  -To be the best Climbing team
  -To be the best academy team
  -To be the best Bermudian team
  -To be the best team period
  -To be as high in the rank as possible
  -To always be in top 10
  -To win the most monuments as high as possible
  -To win the most GC's as high as possible
  -And many many more types of goals
  
  What unites these goals is that they are all a competition. And that's how I see this game first and foremost. As a competition.
  
  How do you see this game? :)
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
13:01 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  This is a very fascinating question, but I'm afraid this thread is not the ideal place to discuss it. I'll give a (very) short version of my answer to not dodge you, but if you want to discuss it further, please open a thread for it.
  
  I basically agree with you. The variety of goals that you can set in the game is what makes it so enjoyable to me.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Skeel
Posts: 216

Posted at:
14:11 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 4/1-2014
Status: Offline

  Imo div 2 is packed with CL and CB races as it is.. And could really use more then 1 true sp race since nearly all of them have equal or higher FR, TQ or HL.
  
  I totally agree with Taavi about the latter part of the season in div 2, i even started a topic on that issue earlier.
  True SP races are seldom and imo there is just way too much focus on niche SP profiles.
  Ialso have the problem that there arent a lot of HLSP with a HL stat lower then the SP stat where i could easily find some in lower divisions.

Last edit by Skeel at 14:42 30/1-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
17:51 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Hi Don and others.
  
  It seems that I didn't make the purpose of my question clear enough in my earlier post (Please see two posts above). I am sure I didn't. :) The reason I am asking how you guys see the game, is because I am genuinly surprised that the majority writing in this topic, think's it is okay to change the parameters of the competition, by adding races that favours a certain type of team, in the scale that it is being done.
  
  So I did start to supect that many of you don't see the purpose of this game, the same way as I do. That being as a competition.
  
  I have always thought, that it was commonly accepted that the rules and parameters set around a competition was holy, and they were only changed if all party involved agreed to change them. And that they were only changed to a degree so they didn't intervene in the competition favouring one part too much over another part. "Too much" is not easy to determinate, but is at least when it influences the ranking on a noticeable scale. That's how I am raised.
  
  By adding races worth 10.080 points that will mostly be swept up by a certain type of teams, I'm quite sure we are changing the parameters of the competition, to a degree that will effect the standing of next seasons ranking, more than just one spot up one spot down. It could decide who and who doesn't qualify for GT, who goes out of top div and who stays and who wins the ranking. That is a big intervention in the competative spirit and a disturbance of what I have known as fair play. On a sidenote it can also decide many of the awards next season, which I too see as a competition.
  
  In my mind every season is a competition in it's own right. We compete as teams in being the best at something. Our tools to wimn is to be good at planning our season, longtermplanning and developing our team. Luck plays a factor too, but it is no different from team to team. In that sence we are all equal. But if changes are made in the game that favours some teams over others, to a degree that can decide the ranking, we are not equal enymore. And that is not in the spirit of competition, in my mind.
  
  So that is why I can not get into my head why so many managers, are fine by making these changes. I think most of us agree that they will make changes in the ranking. And that is why I asked the question - how do you see this game?
  
  Because I started to suspect that most people commenting here, didn't see this game as a competition at all. Or didn't see every season as a competition in it's own right. Because if one see this as a competition, I just can't get to terms with "looking at next season as a test season" and "teams can just adapt" and "we'll see what happens, we can always reverse the changes if they are too much". This is not taking the competition seriously in my mind. To me, it is disrecpectful to the competators that are taking the competition very seriously, spending hours every week, to get that little edge that will make them 10th instead of 11th in the ranking, or that will win them the GT jersey or whatever the goal is.
  
  Please don't take this post as an accusation. :) I am not in the business of judging, and we are all entitled to our opinion. Even though I always gets surpriced when people don't agree with me, haha. :)
  
  This is just how I see the kode of honour that are deeply integrated in the competative spirit, for me. You guys seemingly see it another way. Most of all I am just trying to understand how you see it.
  
  Are you seeing it as a competition at all? If so, can you descripe the thoughtprocess behind justifying, intervening in the competition to the degree it's been done here. I know some of you have explained some. The time issue Don is mentioning. The need for change and so on. But I genuinly don't get why all of this is more important, then the holy spirit of fair play in a competition.
  
  As said in my previous post, I am not against change. I think we should have the possibility to change the meta of our competition if we find it neccecary. But we should change it in a tempo, that doesn't intervene with the main purpose of this game. the competition. I think we can still accomplish these changes without interfering in the competition.
  
  And again. I know this post can sound all oh I am so good and know better. I am sorry if it does. I certainly don't mean to talk down to anybody. I just don't know how else to ask these questions. Hope you will debate with me in a frirndly manner. :) And I hope you can see that i do my best to be friendly here as well. Morale and ethics is a very sensitive issue I am aware. :)
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
18:02 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  Jonas, no disrespect to your argument, but this is really not the right thread.
  Please post it in its own thread.
  
  Edit:
  To clarify on this, this thread is not meant to be a philosophical debate about what the game is and why we think what we think about anything related to changes.
  It is only about discussing the changes itself.
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 18:05 30/1-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
18:30 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Don I can totally understand if you are tired of debating. You have done a big load of work. :)
  
  But I meant this post as an argument against doing the change so fast. Not as a philosophical debate. I mean it as directly connected to the debate on whether we should do the changes in one season or can do it in two or three. And I feel that people debating have overlooked that it is a competition we are altering, and are focusing on the need for change.
  
  I just try to dig a little deeper. The debate up til now have mostly been about how much effect the change will have. There have been very little talk about the validity in interfering in a competition. I hope it is a talk that is okay to have, when debating how we should go about to make these changes - that I support.
  
  In order to meet in a debate, I believe one have to understand where each other come from, so to speak. I think a process rooted in ad debate on the most enlightened basis, will make people feel most heard and more understanding of the outcome.
  
  Please don't cencor me here, so I can't make my arguments, about the topic this debate is about. I am likely going to accept defeat in the outcome of the process. That is hard enough to cope with, haha. :) But not having the ability to debate on the thread that is about the topic, will make it even harder. Hope for your understanding.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
18:52 30/1-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Talked with Don in private I am moving my topic. Don't answer me in here. I am going to edit this post with a link for the debate.
  
  
  Edit: This is the link. http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/forum/general/355313
  
  I really hope people are willing to debate and hear each other out :)
  
  
  

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 18:59 30/1-2019.

CyclingClubChomutov
Posts: 472

Posted at:
18:41 1/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2012
Status: Offline

  The new Division 1 race on Day 58 is twice in the calendar!
  
  A regular CL race and a 'non' race with 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 profile.
  
  The Patryk Drozdowski Trophy Cup:
  
  Spytkowice - Lipnica Wielka is the final race of the trophy, but the sign up is earlier then Wisla - Lamana Skala!
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
19:38 1/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  I was aware of the first mistake, but I'll pass the other one on to Nick as well!
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Bywater CT
Posts: 1790

Posted at:
22:11 7/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 4/8-2010
Status: Offline

  http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/?page=Race&race=Toompea+Eraldistart
  
  27km ITT where SP skill is more important than TT skill?
CC Est
Posts: 475

Posted at:
10:12 8/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 14/6-2014
Status: Offline

  The race was my suggestion, but it was much shorter originally.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 4048

Posted at:
13:11 10/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Offline

  Nick has moved all races that needed to be moved and fixed the bugs.
  Now there's just 3 races left that are still to be added by me and we'll have a full calendar!
  
  
  Edit: Nick will decide if he wants the not yet added Div1 and 2 Cups to have their first edition next season already. I'll keep you posted on that. But assume that they will not be added yet to be on the safe side of planning.
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 13:15 10/2-2019.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2344

Posted at:
15:20 10/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Would be nice with the div 1 sp cup starting next season, like the cl cup. Started to adjust my raceschedule in current season and plan around the sp cup, already the moment it was announced. :)
  
  What happened to Chennai on day 27, was it deleted or moved?
  
  Edit: Ah Chennai moved to day 53 I see. :)
  
  

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 15:23 10/2-2019.

Alpine
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
21:51 10/2-2019 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Agree, would be great to get it in season 48

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