Online: 64
15:23 GMT         Day 29 of 90, Season 46    

Forum

Search



New Transfer Rules
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
13:21 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  This thread does not feature the complete set of rules. You can find that in the stickied thread on the Transfer forum
  
  Hiya guys,
  
  After the transfer dealings of recent times, Nick and me have decided that the old transfer rules needed an update to keep them manageable.
  
  The changes that we decided upon are the following:
  
  - All private deals have to be announced through the Transfer Forum
  - The interruption percentage has gone up from 10% to 15%, and the 25k overbid rule has gone up to 30k
  - A selling team is (still) not forced to sell to the highest interrupting bidder. However, after the seller has decided to not sell, he is not allowed to sell the rider for a lower amount than the highest interrupted bid for the next season.
  
  Also, any transfer thread posted on the forum should adhere to the following requirements:
  
  - Every individual deal should have a separate thread, except for trade deals.
  - Team sales should not be bigger than 4 riders at the same time.
  - Either a link to the rider page, or the full rider info, should be given. In case of unmaxed talents, potentials should always be given.
  - The rider name should always be mentioned separately from the link to his rider page as well, so that it is easy to find using the ‘Search’ function of the forum.
  - A clear deadline must be given, and it should be at least 2 days after the thread is posted for sales threads, or 24h for interruption threads.
  - A bid should always stand for 24 hours before it wins the auction, a.k.a. the 24h rule.
  - Buyers should always get at least 5 days after the original deadline to gather the money. For deals above 400k, this should always be at least 10 days. This does not move along with the 24h rule.
  
  What these rules mean in practise is that there will be no more ‘too beneficial’ deals. Every deal should have a reasonable interruption deadline, so every deal should be market value. We do no longer decide what market value is, the market does.
  
  Our reason for making these changes is that the old rules relied too much on our own valuations. This resulted in too much work when many deals suddenly appeared, a case-by-case variation in outcomes, as well as public disagreement on verdicts. These rules should solve all these issues, while still preventing people from being able to sell or buy for unreasonable prices.
  
  In order for you all to get used to these rules, there will be no punishment for not fully adhering to the format yet until the start of next season. I will of course check, and everyone is free to notify selling managers of not adhering to the format, even if they're not interested in buying the rider.
  
  






Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 10:46 17/9-2018.

PJMcycles
Posts: 152

Posted at:
13:36 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/5-2016
Status: Offline

  +1
Mannekin
Posts: 9

Posted at:
13:51 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/7-2018
Status: Offline

  Too many rules. Too complicated. Too much work for you Don.
mapei bianchi
Posts: 2338

Posted at:
13:52 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  Very good changes imo.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
13:54 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  It shouldn't be too much work, because once people get used to them, they should be able to follow them automatically. I'll just have to keep my eyes open on the transfer forum a bit more, but I have to be doing something to deserve my admin title. ;)
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
WestPomeranian
Posts: 560

Posted at:
14:01 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 21/2-2013
Status: Offline

  awesome!
  good change
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 941

Posted at:
14:16 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  +1 always a 24h rule
  
  2 questions if I understand it correctly.
  If the seller doesn't want to sell after a interruption he can go on and start a new deal with a startprice as high as at least the interuption bid?
  
  And if he doesn't want that must he wait till next season or always 90 days?
Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 222

Posted at:
14:17 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  These rules all seem fair. I would say that in addition, we also need some clear rules on what the punishments should be. That seemed to be something that was causing a lot of contention before.
  
  For example, how many times can I break these rules before getting banned?
  
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
14:39 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @MW
  
  That is correct.
  
  @Jime
  
  Agreed, for the format there are set punishments, but for not announcing there should be one as well. I'll consider what would be suitable, but feel free to suggest anything.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
PEKAC B
Posts: 2309

Posted at:
14:43 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  30k instead of 25k, wow... what an improvement ;-)
  
  What about "too expensive" deals? No rules here so listening to the whining community again?
Time Indaiatuba
Posts: 222

Posted at:
14:45 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2017
Status: Online

  A 3 strike system could be fair.
  
  So if you make a transfer without announcing, the first time it gets reversed and you get a warning, the second time it gets reversed and maybe a fine, the third time it's a transfer ban for 6 months or a year or whatever.
Yuri SuperTeam
Posts: 4580

Posted at:
14:59 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/7-2009
Status: Online

  Still not good enough in my opinion...
  
  Example:
  Team A is a 4th Division team who spent 1 complete season gathering 250k (which is very good I think) and decided to buy a new captain for that price.
  Team A spends a lot of time searching on the OCM world for the perfect fit, negotiates with a couple of teams and finally gets the chance to buy the perfect rider and announces the deal on the forum.
  Team B is a Top Division team with 1m in the bank and sees the private deal thread and thinks "oh look I can buy another TM!" and spends "just" 287.5k (something like 29% of his total amount of money) and get's the chance to get the rider. He spent 1 minute to ruin a huge investment of Team B.
  Is this fair, or will this just keep on favoring the richer teams?
  
  Eliminating the private deals and only raising the interruption amount by 5% is a joke in my opinion...
  
  ------------------------------
  Another point is: How would the Junker situation been handle with this new rules? (http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/forum/transfer/312489)
  
  I think this new rules won't have any impact on this kind of deals, does it make it legal now?
  
  ------------------------------
  It's good to see you guys are interested on making the OCM Market better, but I simply can't see this changes to be good enough. I think they are only making the richer teams to have extra power on the market.
  Another kind of teams that will have an extra advantage with this is those teams that quit the game for a certain period and decide to start playing again and have on their bank account tons of money. They can buy whoever they want :)
  
  Enjoy responsibly,
  Yuri
PEKAC B
Posts: 2309

Posted at:
15:21 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  15% would not be bad in case there is no upper limit.
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 941

Posted at:
15:24 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  I think no interruption amount will stop a rich team for interrupting.
  So that will not change.
  
  I act like team A from your example and experienced a interruption which I didn't like after the hard work. Searching, asking etc.
  But still I'am in favour of announcing every sale and private deal with a 24h rule.
  
  Lets be fair I'am playing like team A because I want to become a team B.:)

Last edit by DeRodeLantaarn at 19:01 5/9-2018.

The Broad Backs
Posts: 607

Posted at:
16:06 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Changing the transfer rules as in auctioning wont protect smaller teams, but Im also not sure whether this is the thread to fight that battle. To solve that, options would be to increase the minimum time a rider has to have been on a team (say, one season) or to install a transfer period.
  
  Apart from that, the rules are small adaptations of what has been implemented over the last years. We do need clearer consequences of breaking the rules.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
18:05 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @Yuri
  I share your criticism that it is not necessary good for small teams. It has been the most important reason for me to not want rules like this until the whole Noppes-drama. After that, I realised that they were needed because it brings clarity. So the rules are not an improvement regarding the difference between big and small teams, but they are for the manageability of the game.
  
  And for all, there is no upper limit to prices either. This is not ideal imo, but I haven't found a solution for it that would not result in vagueness again.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Yuri SuperTeam
Posts: 4580

Posted at:
18:22 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/7-2009
Status: Online

  Don thank you for your answer, I know you know that my criticism is only directed to this rules not solving the problems we have on the market. It will make the life of the teams that spend time searching for the right rider a lot harder and make the life of richer teams easier since more riders are presented to the market. This is why I will always defend the private deals (#freetheprivatedeals)!
  
  The only way I see is to create a committee of experienced and trusty managers to analyse ALL the private deals and forget this idea of interruptions. I believe that in 10 years of OCM we might find 5 teams whiling to help this game improve. there are a lot of managers eager to help the game!
  
  Enjoy responsibly,
  Yuri
Ocaña
Posts: 756

Posted at:
18:22 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 10/7-2010
Status: Online

  So we need new rules ( what harm small teams ) because big teams interpret the rules in their "particular way". Basically converting the whole transfer system in a private hunting ground... seems legit.
  
  @MW: If you play like team A you would never be a team B... maybe a mediocre C like me :)
  
  

Last edit by Ocaña at 18:24 5/9-2018.

gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 1065

Posted at:
19:25 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Offline

  -1
Nikoline
Posts: 762

Posted at:
20:43 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 5/10-2014
Status: Online

  Looks like a big step forward to make the transfer rules clear(er). Great work Don and Nick!
  
  Just thinking out loud...
  
  Why not raise the interruption rate to 20 %, and skip the overbid rule. Or 20 % upto 500 k, and 15 % over 500 k.
  If you do a lot of work and search for the "right" rider for you, you should be able to pay enough to the seller to prevent most interruptions with these percentages.
  
  Also, trade rules is a challenge.
  
  Yuri: A committee sounds like a great idea, with these rules from Don as a start. The committe can not just consist of top div/expecienced teams.
  

Last edit by Nikoline at 20:46 5/9-2018.

nonnies
Posts: 3559

Posted at:
20:49 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Rules seem fair, except the 4 rider rule.
  
  E.g. you won bidding on 4 riders for 200k each.
  
  You have 8 riders each worth 100k if auctioned (rv around 80k). Essentially blocking the 4 sellers from receiving money in reasonable time.
  
  This rule should be reconsidered...
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
20:53 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @aarin
  
  I now realise I have to rephrase that rule, because it only means that a single thread should not consist of more than 4 riders. You are still allowed to sell everyone in separate threads.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
TeamQuetzal
Posts: 575

Posted at:
21:00 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 24/11-2015
Status: Offline

  @Jime
  
  this aint youtube hahah
  
  JHDZ
Opium Fueled
Posts: 1462

Posted at:
22:09 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/1-2012
Status: Offline

  #FreePrivateDeals
V02maXXers
Posts: 3033

Posted at:
22:42 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 12/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Cant we have a transfer template for sales threads and/or private deals. In that way it will be easier to adhere to the formats
  
  Transfer rules will never be perfect. Some clarity is good I think
Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
22:42 5/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Quote: " Team A is a 4th Division team who spent 1 complete season gathering 250k (which is very good I think) and decided to buy a new captain for that price.
   Team A spends a lot of time searching on the OCM world for the perfect fit [etc]"
  
  I have an issue with this argument, and that is, what type of team is most likely to be chasing private deals? I contend it's unlikely new players, and is in fact players that's been here for a long time, and this make the premise of the argument invalid.
  
  Quote: "A 3 strike system could be fair. "
  
  But that should surely depend on the severity of the infraction? And how deliberate it is.
  
  Quote: "Team sales should not be bigger than 4 riders at the same time."
  
  Just a quick question. Does this mean a team will be prohibited from selling more than 4 cyclists in the same period of time? Or is it meant to be that team to team agreed deals should not be bigger than 4 cyclists?
  
  
Yuri SuperTeam
Posts: 4580

Posted at:
00:37 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/7-2009
Status: Online

  Hi Rustgold. On my example I never spoken about new teams, just richer and poorer teams. There are a lot of teams on division 3 and 4, were the competition is already high, that have been playing for a long time despite not having a rich team. You can also find this kind of "poor" teams on division 1.
  
  Hope this helped make my example more understandable :)
  
  Enjoy responsibly,
  Yuri
nonnies
Posts: 3559

Posted at:
07:51 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 5/7-2011
Status: Offline

  @Don, makes sense thanks.
  
  One more question, is full name enough for rider info? Thinking of difficulty with mobile devices in copying/typing out all the details.
  
  Especially older mobile devices
  
  Overall it's a step in the right direction though : )

Last edit by nonnies at 07:52 6/9-2018.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
08:04 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  Full name would not be enough, but if you are not able to copy/paste (copying the link to the rider page should be possible though), just mention it in the thread and feel free to send me a pm with the request to do it.
  
  @Rustgold
  
  It is still allowed to sell more than 4 riders, just not in the same sales thread.
  
  The idea of a template is good, I'll see what I can do when I have time for it.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 08:59 6/9-2018.

AusGo
Posts: 1438

Posted at:
08:09 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 21/7-2014
Status: Offline

  @Don
  
  Only putting the link such as [rider]*******[rider] of the thread to meet both requirements is unacceptable, correct? (I'm assuming the name part isn't picked up on the forum unless it's typed in the thread)
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
08:13 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  I can form a Transfer Committee of 1.
  
  It would consist of: Me.
DZWF
Posts: 621

Posted at:
08:13 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 10/8-2015
Status: Offline

  Clean and thx.
  
  1 comment. I'm always happy when there is a team sale. Sure a person often quits the game but at least the riders stay on the market and it often starts a carousel of other teams freeing up money to buy these riders.
  
  Only allowing 4 riders per team sale thread seems to me like adding governance for no reason. Keeping everything in 1 thread is cleaner for the buyers and especially seller who wants to be done with it asap as well. I don't see a reason why the new rule would be better?
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
08:16 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  @Michael Gold
  
  Correct. If you have for instance a private deal with just the link, and someone later wants to search for the thread, then the name of the rider will not give you the thread, so you will have to do this:
  
  Selling Amund Berger!
  
  Information and stats: Amund Berger

Last edit by Hells Grannies at 08:16 6/9-2018.

Tears and Saints
Posts: 192

Posted at:
08:18 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 20/4-2012
Status: Offline

  The interruption percentage for trades still the same?
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
08:20 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  @Richard
  
  I kinda agree, but at the same time it shouldn't be that difficult, atleast not if we get a standard on the forum. Then it would just be for instance 4 different threads that look like this:
  
  "TS#1 Berger, Parrera, Bazán, Zomer"
  "TS#2 Hirsch, Hasket, Perret, Buganda"
  "TS#3 Filipowicz, Tijs, Armas, Makua"
  "TS#4 Horring, Chmiel, Rabelo, Kaplan"
  
  
  I am guessing it is to make it easier for Don to have control (?)
  

Last edit by Hells Grannies at 08:20 6/9-2018.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
08:59 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @ Michael
  
  Yes, that is correct, and for the reason you gave.
  
  @Richard
  
  I've heard multiple people complain about the chaotic nature of team sales. Also, in a sales thread with 10 or more riders, some of them might not get noticed as much, resulting in prices that are lower than they would have been in a regular sale. I want to give the chance to every sale to get noticed to make sure the price is right. Also, what Jolla said. ;)
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
09:06 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I support the max 4 riders per thread rule and generally the new rules. Definitely an improvement.
  
  And I don't really share Yuri's concern at all. It is typically the top teams that make the good private deals, not the smaller ones.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
09:15 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I added an example deal in the Transfer Rules thread in the Transfer section.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
DZWF
Posts: 621

Posted at:
10:34 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 10/8-2015
Status: Offline

  Let's see how it works, just a bit concerned some leaving managers won't bother anymore.
  
  Keep up the good work!
Manisaspor
Posts: 1999

Posted at:
12:36 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 9/5-2011
Status: Offline

  These rules look like an improvement, generally aiming to slow up the transfers.
  
  It seems to me that Junger deal was reversed for no obvious reason referring to the rules.
  The sanctions still do not seem clearer than before. Some private deals may still be treated more equal than others.
  
  What Yuri put up was utilizing interruption as a mechanism to get a rider through a shortcut way, not necessarily interrupting for the sake of ensuring a "self-regulating" market. That ancient problem looks a difficult one to solve.
  
  Whining Team

Last edit by Manisaspor at 12:37 6/9-2018.

Starlynk Bermuda
Posts: 390

Posted at:
12:49 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  @Ozgur: well at least now it's clearly stated that you don't have to sell a rider to an interrupting team and Don stated it's definitely ok to cancel the interrupted deal and make a new private deal to the original bidder with the interruption price and the interruption bidder cannot complain about this behaviour.
  
  If this is going to happen more, hopefully it'll discourage teams from interruping deals as a shortcut way to get riders, since they won't be able to get the rider.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
13:33 6/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I can confirm what Martijn says is true.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Blues Racing
Posts: 252

Posted at:
13:37 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 6/8-2011
Status: Offline

  We could install a limitation on how far a higher div team is allowed to interrupt a deal, that is announced by a lower div team. An example: Div 1 teams are only allowed to interrupt deals announced by teams of divs 1 to 3, or something like that. Of course there are still Teams A outside of div 1. But it would raise the chances of Teams B to get through with their effort they've done for arranging a fitting deal for themselves.
  
  (Sorry if this idea was already mentioned here. Didn't read through the complete thread. Just had the idea, but not enough time)
  
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 941

Posted at:
13:59 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  Personally I think that doesn't match with the idea of letting the market decide the market value.
  Every rider must be available for everyone is my opinion.
  
  The younger and expensive riders will automaticcaly go to the higher teams or teams that saved money. The older riders are easier to get with the new % of interruption.
  And what Martijn said. I expect more private deals that won't go through after a interruption.

Last edit by DeRodeLantaarn at 14:00 7/9-2018.

Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
15:36 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  I have to wonder why would a seller refuse to sell after an interruption if it's going to be a better price? (With exceptions of any particular blacklist) It doesn't make sense to refuse extra money unless there's some "special dealing" between particular people or accounts.
  
  And this claim that "managers are shortcutting by interrupting" nonsense, it seems to me as if that talk is actually suggesting that those hunting for private deals are attempting to get cyclists for less than market value, and this talk is seeking to protect such things.

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 15:39 7/9-2018.

DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 941

Posted at:
15:50 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Offline

  We will see what happens:)
  I think and know there are more managers unless your 2 examples who like this idea for their reasons. NT is one of them.
Team Seidel
Posts: 1068

Posted at:
17:05 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 20/6-2013
Status: Offline

  This game is now becomming more like RL, I like it. If Sky wants a rider, they often just buy him. Do we like it? No maybe not, but, that's RL. So the aim must be to be as succesfull and rich as Team Sky. I liked what MW said.
  Quote:
  Lets be fair I'am playing like team A because I want to become a team B.:)
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
18:43 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  That is exactly what I am thinking Rusgold. I think it would be better if the seller wasn't allowed to pull the rider from the market if a deal is interrupted.
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
20:03 7/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Quote: "I expect more private deals that won't go through after a interruption."
  
  This is NOT a rule change in any way. This was also the case with the old system. The only difference now is that you are required to put the rider out for minimum the same price as the highest in the interruption thread.
  
  I remember I had at least one private deal where I specifically asked that if it was interrupted, then the seller would cancel the thread and we would make a new one with a higher price.
  
  For instance if we agreed to a price of 100k, then I said that if someone bid higher than that, that we would just pull the deal off the table and structure a new private deal at 115k.
  
  It never happened as far as I can remembered, as in the case when I had made such a deal with the seller, no manager interrupted the sale.
Universal Cycling
Posts: 92

Posted at:
06:11 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 14/3-2018
Status: Offline

  - If a transfer is interrupted, the seller can decide not to transfer the rider in question at all.
  
  that rule was already quite clear i ndeed in the old rules.
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1674

Posted at:
08:40 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Offline

  I (and others like me) have explained this multiple times, but I'll do it again in case people didn't see it last time.
  
  The reason people would not want to sell to someone else is usually quite obvious. For example, in my case, I'm always focused on the World Tour, which means that I'd rather sell a Bermudian/Mongolian to another Bermudian/Mongolian team who I know will take good care of him for the World Tour for 100k than to a random other team for 150k. Money just isn't that important to me.
  
  People understand the importance of fairness and fair market prices, but that doesn't mean they have to sell to whichever team bids the most and I'm glad this is still represented in the rules.

Last edit by Hog Bay CT at 08:42 8/9-2018.

Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
09:27 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I definitely think your point is understood, I just think that the arguments are a bit better in the other direction :) When that is said, I have no problems with the rules as they are now. The most important thing was to get every transfer to go through the forum.
Ocaña
Posts: 756

Posted at:
10:23 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 10/7-2010
Status: Online

  I think it's good that the transfer goes through the forum, the problem here are the interruptions.
  
  If I make a deal with you, I'll do it with you. Not with one that offered 30 K more 5 days later. And that is another reason why you don't have to force to sell.
  
  And all this leads to the fact that the original buyer has to upload the offer... and sometimes it will not be a problem, but sometimes it will not be able to go up because it has no more money. (Team A of Yuri's example)
  
  But of course... it's not a problem at all, cos teams A don't make many transfers... I wonder why.
peddelen
Posts: 1621

Posted at:
11:07 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  What I read is more bureaucracy here,
  More threads, long periods before a sale is completed.
  
  Rule 3:"he is not allowed to sell the rider for a lower amount than the highest interrupted bid for the next season">>>>> Literally it says now you can still sell the rider in the current season. Change this to the next 90 days.
  
  More over rule 4 and 5 conflict. Every INDIVIDUAL deal has to have a seperate thread but you can have TEAM deals and TRADES with MULTIPLE riders.
  
  Maybe good to explain what INDIVIDUAL here means.
  
  Rules 7 & 8 are easy to be broken by anyone and especially new managers who don't know the rules.
  
  I can't see how these rules prevent "Too Benificial Deals" apart from them delaying the transfer proces a lot. The conditions to interupt a deal are much harder now as you need more money to do so. I can still buy and sell a 500k rider and get the deal done because nobody has that kind of money let alone is interested is buying this rider, Never mind the cases were the rider is overvalued.
  
  
  And lastly I see a bunch of rules but no (concrete measure of) punishment for violation.
peddelen
Posts: 1621

Posted at:
11:41 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 4/5-2010
Status: Offline

  BTW Nick has not been active for 3 weeks now.
  
  How can he decide which rules are good for the game if he is not even looking at it?
  Not that I mind you are making the rules now Don. ;)
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
18:30 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @petoi
  
  Changing it to 90 days to avoid confusion makes sense
  
  Theses rules do not prevent too beneficial deals. Too beneficial deals are no longer a thing. Every sale is valid as long as it's announced on the forum and the right format was used.
  
  The punishment is something I'll work on clarifying this weekend.
  
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 18:31 8/9-2018.

PEKAC B
Posts: 2309

Posted at:
21:31 8/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  Obligation of the interrupting team to buy under the conditions given in the original sale and possibility of the seller to refuse to sell are the only reasonable part of the rules and should be kept.
  
  Should I want to get max possible amount of money, I would probably do an auction. Private deals I do because of an agreement with another team which we both believe is beneficial for us.
  
  I do not like teams interrupting private deals so do not see any reason for selling my riders to them. So far, I have not seen a single announced too beneficial private deal, all interruptions were done just for the purpose of getting the rider.
Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
22:33 9/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Quote: "A clear deadline must be given, and it should be at least 2 days after the thread is posted for sales threads, or 24h for interruption threads."
  "Buyers should always get at least 5 days after the original deadline to gather the money"
  
  I have a little trouble reconciling with these two rules together (ok, maybe a little pedantic of me, but anyway). You see, most managers pay for cyclists by selling other cyclists. And the trouble I have is as follows.
  
  * Winning manager wins the bidding for cyclist John Doe for $350k. He/she has 5 days to get the money.
  * So naturally, a cyclist or two are put up for sale. Yet, under the new rules, it's a minimum of 7 days before the funds can be raised, even if there's only one bidder on a cyclist; which means he/she can't actually raise the money, unless of course cyclists are simply released into the transfer market, which is fine in my view, but anyway.
  _______
  
  Note: Of course, minimum time for transfers above $400k is absolutely essential.

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 22:40 9/9-2018.

Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
23:30 9/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  I don't see how these rules makes this happen.
  
  Before the rule change a seller could sell John Doe for 350k, and say that only teams that can buy the rider within 48 hours can bid, seeing as the seller needs the money that fast / or because it is simply a version of a private deal where you make it almost impossible to interrupt it.
  
  Now the minimum time for raising that money for other teams that want to buy John Doe is 5 days (maximum time is still up to the seller.)
  
  If you want to buy him, and have to put up two cyclists for sale, then you can always try to make a private deal with a team that has capital, where you already have made a deal where the buying team buys the rider(s) immediately after the bidding deadline (the minimum time that a selling team has to give for buyers to gather money does not mean that buyers CAN'T buy riders before 5 days has passed). Alternatively you could make a thread on the transfer forum where you state that you want to sell rider x and/or y if someone is willing and able to buy him/them quickly, and so you will quickly have an answer if you can bid on John Doe or not. If people are interested, then you can make the transfer thread, knowing you have bidders who can meet your deadline.
  
  Just explaining the situation in your sales thread will probably also work, people aren't jerks.
  
  And finally, following my last statement. Say you have won the auction for John Doe, and sell two riders but due to different reasons you end up not getting the money on day 5 (as promised) but rather on day 7, then what do you envision will happen? Will the seller just go "ah well, I sell on day 5 to the guy that bid 300k", and then the guys that bid on your riders that you made clear that you were selling ASAP to get John Doe on day 5 won't understand, and show understanding towards the fact that you now want to pull the deals? Again, people aren't jerks just to be jerks. Managers in this game help each others, at least that is what they should do.
  
  
  Edit: Changed price on John Doe from 800k to 350k, to better correspond to your example and the rules. (Didn't notice the 10 days on over-400k-sales.)

Last edit by Hells Grannies at 23:59 9/9-2018.

Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
23:52 9/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  A cyclist selling for $750k would be on a ten day settlement period. My comment was on cyclists under $400k.
  And on the "people aren't jerks" statement, managers would normally give a few days to settle without this rule, unless they need to money to settle their own purchase. This rule on those under $400k, simply removes that situational flexibility. And it slows up transfers that could normally be completed within a couple of days. And this is without the possibility that the 2nd trade will also have this same issue. This minimum 5 days can easily end up in double figures.
  
  Of course, there's always releasing cyclists onto the transfer list, which is fine in my opinion.
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
23:55 9/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  The minimum 5 days doesn't have a real effect...
  
  If the buyer BEFORE the change were going to buy the rider after 2 days, then he will still buy him after 2 days. If the buyer BEFORE the change were going to buy the rider after 20 days, then he will still buy him after 20 days.
  
  The only thing it does is protect against sellers not giving any time to buyers.
  
  I really don't understand what problem you are seeing that I didn't address in my first answer. Explain it to me.

Last edit by Hells Grannies at 23:57 9/9-2018.

Avataria
Administrator
Posts: 2734

Posted at:
00:09 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 20/6-2013
Status: Offline

  I like the new rules! They are the same I tried to implement, but we ended up with the one thats used until now.
  
  I see the arguments against have not changed, and some of them are of course good arguments, but the new rules are the lesser of two evils.
  
  Sadly, still no comeback for me!
V02maXXers
Posts: 3033

Posted at:
01:03 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 12/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Tsssk. Avataria, there is something wrong with your priorities :P
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
07:01 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  So does the new 5 day rule mean I can’t sell a low value rider, for lets say 50k, and state that the buyer must have the money on hand and buy on the same day as deadline? Ie two days from start of auction?
Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
07:08 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Correct Jonas. You have to give at least 48 hours for the auction, plus at least 5 days for settlement. Which is the issue I mentioned above, when selling low quality domestiques to pay for a more expensive purchase. Under the rules, it technically can't be done (unless the originating purchase is above the $400k threshold)
  The rule absolutely makes sense for higher quality cyclists though.

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 07:11 10/9-2018.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
18:03 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  +1 For the new transferrules in general.
  
  But how can the 5 day rule function in practice?
  
  Team 2 wins the bid for a rider from team 1. Team 1 wants his money 5 days after deadline, which he is entitled to within the rules, and can be set as a parametre for bidding.
  
  Team 2 makes a post to sell a rider. The earliest this rider can be sold is 7 days after. So already in the first part of the chain, team 1 can't get his money in time.
  
  Let alone of team 3 needs to sell to team 4 and team 4 to team 5. Now we are 15 days ahead.
  
  I totally understand the rule and it's intentions. But in reality it could be a neverending transfer chain that will never happen. Unless a team 2 has the money in hand and maximum 21 rideres.
  
  So the 5 day rule means, that only teams with 21 or less riders and has the money in hand, can bid. Am I wrong?
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
18:22 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  Jonas, the 5/10 days rule is to avoid transfers where the seller could demand immediate payment thereby disqualifying a large number of buyers. At least it is better than before by saying a minimum of 5 or 10 days pending the value of the rider. Most sellers would allow more days if it means a higher price.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
18:25 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Alpine yes true, and I totally understand the intention.
  
  But if team 1 dead on needs his money within 5 days after deadline. Then it is only teams with 21 riders or less and money in hand that can bid, right? :)
  
  edit: unless they release to transfermarket.

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 18:26 10/9-2018.

Universal Cycling
Posts: 92

Posted at:
18:27 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 14/3-2018
Status: Offline

  Usually you don't post auctions for just 2 days, unless you want a quick sale. Currently people already ask if the money can wait a bit longer and this is usually ok.
  If the deadline is longer you can start selling earlier.
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
18:27 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I guess that would be the implication. Or 22 riders with the back up ability to release a guy. Guess the lesson is, Always keep a jobber around to give the Donald Trump treatment.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
18:29 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  But couldn't this be more smooth transfermarket, if there were a minimum price for the 5 day rule?
  
  It could be 3 days for riders less than 150k
  2 days for riders less than 100k
  1 day for riders less than 50k
  
  As example. The numbers could be different.
  then it was more likely that one team in the chain could make a quicksale, without jeopardizing the original intention of the rule.
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
18:41 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  @Jonas, what if a team wants to buy a rider for 100k, and the best way to free up a spot and get the money would be to sell a rider for 200k. You would then have the same problem, only worse.
  
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
19:03 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Thats true.
  
  Then the team 2must go for the second best choice if he want's it done quick.
  With the laddersystem, there is still the possibility to sell a lower valued rider quick. Without holding teams out on highvalue transfers. The quicktransfer is much harder to do with a flat 5 day rule.
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
19:04 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I just don't think it is worth making it more complicated, and I like the 5 day rule to be honest to keep it more open and fair.
Tears and Saints
Posts: 192

Posted at:
19:17 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 20/4-2012
Status: Offline

  Once again: The interruption percentage for trades still the same (20% or 50k)?

Last edit by Tears and Saints at 19:30 10/9-2018.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
19:35 10/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @barcelona.
  
  That is correct. I should also mention that in the new rules.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Vientiane Cycling
Posts: 1375

Posted at:
10:41 11/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 24/10-2012
Status: Offline

  This is what destroyed the game. Bye! ;)
Drapeau Noir
Posts: 4157

Posted at:
14:03 11/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 8/8-2010
Status: Offline

  "Too beneficial deal are no longer a thing. Every sale is valid as long as it's announced on t forum and the right format was used."
  
  Don't say things you'll regret. It's possible to bend these rules and get a beneficial deal (even if it's harder), common sense should still apply.
  
  On another subject, as it was demonstrated the 5 days rule can't work well with cheap riders in several cases. This problem needs to be adressed.
  
TeamQuetzal
Posts: 575

Posted at:
16:32 11/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 24/11-2015
Status: Offline

  The thing is, many managers will not be able to raise the money with that rule. For instance, a Div 4 manager that could buy a new captain for 350k, but only has 300, will not be able to sell a 90k rider in time get the money. Unless you make a private deal, as someone earlier said. What Jonas said is a great solution for me (1 day 5ok, etc) But then you have the problem that Alpine stated. This is just annoying at this point.
  
  JHDZ
Universal Cycling
Posts: 92

Posted at:
17:20 11/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 14/3-2018
Status: Offline

  how many auctions last only 2 days? then you can do a quicksale. Often money isn't needed that quick, so you have some more days. No problemo
California Mist
Posts: 1139

Posted at:
08:24 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 20/6-2012
Status: Offline

  These new clear rules are definately an improvement on the previous system, but my concern is over what were actually trying to stop. I.e beneficial deals - if just one manager out of all the active players wants a rider more and can pay more (hence an interruption), does that really mean the deal is beneficial? In my opinion no, so the original deal should be allowed.
  
  A system could be implemented similar to bio’s and race descriptions on Ocm hd where people can vote. My idea would be when 2 teams a agree a private deal, there’s an option on the rider page for this. The selling team, can enter the buying team name, and the agreed transfer price, then this gets sent to the buying team to confirm the details. Once confirmed, it shows as pending on a page and only shows the rider details (not the buying team name or the amount agreed), and other teams can then enter an amount they feel would be fair. After a predetermined amount of time (I would suggest 48 hours), an algorithm works out the mean of all the values entered, and if the original price set is higher the private deal passes, whereas if it’s lower it would need to be adjusted. Values entered as anomalies (I.e someone enters 1million when all others are around 250k should be automatically rejected, and the team who entered this gets a warning)
  
  I don’t know enough about coding to know if something like this is easy to implement, or even possible.
  
  
  
  
Alpine
Posts: 1020

Posted at:
09:00 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Online

  I don't think the only intention is to stop beneficial deals, but also provide an effective market place to the extent possible. I think it is great that all deals are going through the forums and available to all.
Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
10:07 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  Jonas, explain to me ONE example of how the rules are better now compared to with a 5 day rule?
  
  Quote:
  
  " But how can the 5 day rule function in practice?
  
   Team 2 wins the bid for a rider from team 1. Team 1 wants his money 5 days after deadline, which he is entitled to within the rules, and can be set as a parametre for bidding.
  
   Team 2 makes a post to sell a rider. The earliest this rider can be sold is 7 days after. So already in the first part of the chain, team 1 can't get his money in time.
  
   Let alone of team 3 needs to sell to team 4 and team 4 to team 5. Now we are 15 days ahead. "
  
  
  If you are going to do the same example before the 5-day rule then you have this:
  
  Team 2 wins the bid for a rider from team 1. Team 1 wants his money exactly after deadline, which he is entitled to within the rules, and can be set as a parametre for bidding.
  
   Team 2 makes a post to sell a rider. The earliest this rider can be sold is 24 hours after. So already in the first part of the chain, team 1 can't get his money in time.
  
   Let alone if team 3 needs to sell to team 4 and team 4 to team 5. Now we are 3 days behind.
  
  
  And to just do the same thing how I would with the new 5-day rule:
  
  Team 2 wins the bid for a rider from Team 1. Team 1 wants the money right after bidding deadline, but due to the new rules Team 2 at least has 5 days to sell a rider and open up a space in their team.
  
  Team 2 asks on the transfer forum (or in PMs) if anyone is able to buy either rider x or rider y on short notice. Team 2 gets an answer from Team 3 that they can/want to do this. Team 2 and Team 3 makes a private deal where it is implied that Team 3 will buy the rider quickly after bidding deadline so that Team 2 can buy the rider from Team 1.
  
  The deal goes through on day 3 and Team 2 buys the rider from Team 1 two days before the 5 days are up, making Team 1 happy aswell.
  
  
  
  
  Remember people, the alternative to a 5-day rule is a 0-minute rule - which effectively is what we have today - it just never is a genuine problem, because - again - people aren't jerks for no other reason than to be jerks.
  

Last edit by Hells Grannies at 10:09 13/9-2018.

TeamQuetzal
Posts: 575

Posted at:
16:21 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 24/11-2015
Status: Offline

  @Knots see, with an OCM HD for transfers, the problem would be lots of trolls. Lots of negative votes for no coherent reason. I once wrote a wonderful piece (and yes it was amazing) of my trainer Wes Stephenson. But it was downvotes so much, just because it did not follow the normal boring bios that only list achievements. I have seen race descriptions being downvoted for no reason. But that is good, since bios are seen by everyone. They affect the whole game and democracy should indeed be established. On the other hand, transfers only affect two teams (and maybe their competition) so it should be of no concern for other managers to vote. This new system is still flawed, but better that the previous and what you are proposing
  
  
  jhdz

Last edit by TeamQuetzal at 00:12 14/9-2018.

Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
19:57 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Jolla I never said the rules was better now than with the 5 day rules.
  
  I just suggested a ladderstem, so you could get rid of an lowvalue rider quickly, in order to speed up the transferproces. I don't see what that has to do with people being jerks?
  
  Even by sticking to the rules, you could end up in a long transfer period, where people have to wait five days, to wait five days, to wait five days, just by followin the rules.
  
  Or did I misunderstand something, so the 5 day rule does not apply to privatde deals? Your team 3 has to wait 5 days as well?
  
  
  Edit: the second alternative to the 5 day rule is what i suggested earlier. It's not like it's either 5 day rule or nothing as you implies. :)
  
  It could be 3 days for riders less than 150k
  2 days for riders less than 100k
  1 day for riders less than 50k
  
  It's already 10 days for riders over 400k. So it's not like it is a new system. :)
  

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 20:08 13/9-2018.

Hells Grannies
Posts: 1488

Posted at:
21:15 13/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2013
Status: Offline

  The seller being required to give the buyer 5 days to buy a rider does not mean that the buyer can't buy a rider quicker. If you have a 3 day rule for riders less than 150k, 2 days for riders less than 100k and 1 day for riders less than 50k - this does not change.
  
  If (in your system) Team X was going to bid 45k on Rider Y and pay 1 day later, then why wouldn't Team X also pay 1 day later if he bought Rider Y with a 5-day system?
  
  
  And just to be clear, I am fine with your rule change. If those were the rules I would be standing here defending them. But I just don't see them as being a big improvement compared to the 5-day rule.
Jonas Pro Cycling
Posts: 2225

Posted at:
19:10 14/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 25/7-2011
Status: Offline

  I must admit that I thought the 5 day rule meant that you weren't allowed to buy the rider before 5 days. I need to read the first post instead just some of them in the middle, haha ;)
  
  It is a big improvement already, being able to choose. No doubt!
  
  I still think it would make a more smooth transfermarket, if one were able to get rid of riders quicker, without relying on the wellwillingness of the buying team.
  
  I would prefer being able to sell a rider in a very short notice, to get an incoming transfer moving, rather than getting full value. In particular if it was a lowvalue rider, say like this guy http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/?page=Rider%20Profile&id=872049
  
  Bang out, 1 or 2 days. Goodbye :D
  
  

Last edit by Jonas Pro Cycling at 19:11 14/9-2018.

Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
22:57 14/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  Question: What is the purpose of the 5 day or 10 day allowance?
  Answer?: Isn't it to make sure managers have an opportunity to purchase decent cyclists?
  
  If this is so, then wouldn't it make sense for the 5 days & 10 days to be for those cyclists who are worth something?
  Are we going to find these in cyclists that sell for maxed cyclists under $200k? Not likely.
  
  As such, Jonas's suggestion could be simplified.
  Maxed cyclists under $200k = no special requirements
  untrained cyclists & $200k-399k = 5 days
  Maxed cyclists $400k+ = 10 days

Last edit by Australian Warlord at 02:32 15/9-2018.

jmtoler
Posts: 1733

Posted at:
01:01 15/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 19/6-2012
Status: Offline

  i agree with these rules. mostly they are ones i have suggested when i was playing more actively. one thing i did notice, i didn't see the punishments listed here but they were on the sticky thread.
  
  i suggest one change mainly because i just now noticed this thread and there will be other inactive players who come back and make deals to rebuild their teams. let's say a deal is posted under the old formatting:
  
  JMTOLER begins auction for rider JOHN SMITH for 120k. He's maxed. 12 hour rule, money due in 3 days.
  
  that breaks the rules but if no one mentions the new rules to him it should not be penalized. allow the community to point out violations and then punish only if the team ignores links to the proper rules. this would effectively be a warning system. clearly anyone participating in this thread has read the rules as will all the top/active teams, but for some teams a warning would be more appropriate because they would be ignorant of any rule changes during their absence.
team dustin
Posts: 427

Posted at:
12:01 18/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 30/11-2016
Status: Offline

  If there is no bid on deadline date, what are the rules?
  
  If no one has interest till deadline, is it possible that first bid immediatly can be a deal.
  Or by bids after deadline they can ask to pay within a few days.
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3612

Posted at:
12:10 18/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  No, any deal has to go through the whole process. But, you can always state in your sales thread that you would prefer to have the money in a few days and hope that the buyers will be considerate. With an unpopular rider that should probably never be a problem.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Australian Warlord
Posts: 811

Posted at:
12:49 18/9-2018 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2011
Status: Online

  For Dustin
  Quote point 9 in 1st post: " A bid should always stand for 24 hours before it wins the auction, a.k.a. the 24h rule."
  then if that bid stands for 24 hours, it'll be 5-10 days after the original deadline:
  
  Btw, that brings up something interesting. Let's say bidding slowly continues 3-4-5 after the original deadline. By these rules, the seller could effectively demand near immediate payment; which could be impossible unless a player already has the money in the bank.

Reply