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Tweaking and Changing Engine
Team Zyte
Developer
Posts: 2513

Posted at:
23:58 25/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2007
Status: Offline

  Hey guys
  
  I have decided to make a change in the race engine as an experiment, and also, as announced the other day, I have tweaked the influence of experience a bit.
  
  The changes will be in effect on the 14th of November 2017.
  
  The changes are as follows:
  
  1) I have reduced the overall influence of good and bad days (randomness) on results.
  2) I have reduced the chances of performing really well (super legs) and really bad (off days).
  3) I have reduced the importance of experience
  
  
  So what does these new changes mean?
  
  1) Rider stats will be more important in the future, as the results will be based more on the steady performance of riders rather than "chance". This will also make it easier to predict results. I do though want a rather high random factor influencing the results, as this is what makes a difference in results in general, it is the randomness that allows a rider with less good stats to beat stronger riders. Without such a factor, we will simply see the same riders winning over and over again. You can consider it to be a tweak of the engine. If it provides better results, I will keep it. If not, I will change it back.
  
  2) Your riders will perform more steadily, which means that there is a bigger chance that they will have a "normal" day. "Normal" is though still to be measued, as "good legs", "super legs" and "off days" simply shows up in the top and bottom scenarios. There is no notification message triggered for all the stuff in between. This means that you will see fewer "good legs", "super legs" and "off days" in the future.
  
  3) Young riders will perform slightly better, while old riders will perform slightly worse. It is a minor tweak, which will not have a lot of influence, but it is an attempt to bring the influence of young riders up, so that it will be worth training them.
  
  
  I hope you like these changes.
  
  As stated under point 1) above, these are all experimental changes that may or may not become permanent depending on how satisfied I am with the results they produce. We will see.
  
  Any feedback on the results after 14th of November is gladly appreciated.
  
  Best regards,
  OCM Developer Nick





Team Zyte
Developer
Posts: 2513

Posted at:
00:02 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2007
Status: Offline

  As an addition to the above, I would also like to add that new teams now will receive a better captain when registering, as announced the other day.
  
  Newly generated captains will in general have 75-80 in their main stat (CL or SP) and 51-56 in their secondary stats (FR/TQ for sprinting and DH/HL for climbing).
  
  I hope our new teams will have a bit of an easier time now.
  
  In the future, I will be focusing on more features for new teams.
  
  For those who signed up before this change - I'm sorry. There has to be a date of effect. So I hope you'll succeed with your team anyways. :)
  
  Best regards,
  OCM Developer Nick
TeamQuetzal
Posts: 424

Posted at:
01:55 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 24/11-2015
Status: Offline

  Until november...Perhaps a new team! I like this changes Nick. Good work.
  
  
  JHDZ
Indurain team
Posts: 714

Posted at:
02:13 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 18/8-2009
Status: Offline

  Interesting changes....
Cokol Breakaway Team
Posts: 361

Posted at:
03:00 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/3-2015
Status: Offline

  I will be honest, I don't like new changes. #1 and #2 especially. What do you mean 'better results'? You will get different results if you dunk the importance of daily form. They are not better or worse, just different.
  
  I am afraid that what will happen is that same riders will keep winning and there will be less chances of little guy to succeed. You know who primarily complained about the impact of off days? Top managers who upset that they didn't win their favorite tour or classic. They will still keep whining, because only 1 rider can win a race...
  
  To summarize, reducing impact of daily form goes against your intention of helping new teams and getting the game to grow. It only empowers old, established teams. There is huge random factor left. It is in the training success - I would advice now everybody against training and instead buying a captain of transfer market. Decent, but not excellent riders won't reliably score points any more with less random results.
  
  If you want the game to grow, there are easier solutions. Do you honestly think that new team joins and thinks "man, I love it... but I find the results are so random. I quit." Heck, no. Most new teams log in once and then get so confused that they never want to log in again... You can finally update manual (it does not provide accurate info anymore with new changes), maybe help welcome new teams with an auto message containing a simple how-to guide, pretty up website (this ain't 2009 anymore) maybe with a mobile version. Yuri has an excellent list of community suggestions as well (shout out to improving talent feature specifically).
  
  I don't want to come off as too negative, but this is my honest feedback to help you improve your game. Catering to div 1 team is not a long-term solution, you need to cater to div 9-10 players, even if somebody will occasionally get upset about an off day.
  
  P.S. I had 3 off days and 1 mechanical on my best 4 riders at Valparaìso.
mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
03:04 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  Reducing the importance of experience again? I believe you're flogging a dead horse there.
  
  Edit: What i mean is that from a manager point of view experience has no relevance. It doesn't matter if a rider races 18 or 30 races a season. Before with every race the team got better, now if you don't score it was a waste. Sadly experience has become a tool for you to tweak things and a feature of minimal importance for us if any.
  If you think that older riders are overperforming or younger ones underperforming then maybe you could increase the experience cap for young riders or increase the performance decline in age for old riders.
  

Last edit by mapei bianchi at 07:50 26/10-2017.

Team WonderDee
Posts: 4569

Posted at:
06:46 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 13/7-2008
Status: Offline

  Nick, there are some shirts to upload too! (And of course some more badges)
Ello Ello
Posts: 828

Posted at:
11:20 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  got to agree with Cokol
  
  By reducing the randomness we're going to see a reduction in the number of riders who are regularly competitive which is just going to skyrocket the value of these riders putting the established rich teams in a stronger position.
  
  Like everyone else I don't enjoy seeing that a rider's had an off day in a race they should do well in but it's a necessary evil and is all worthwhile when you get a super legs and win a race you weren't expecting to.
  
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3154

Posted at:
11:55 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @ Cokol
  
  We are not eliminating randomness from the game. The change is not meant to be extreme, it is meant to find the balance between this game being a lottery or not. Atm, it's a bit too much based on daily form. So this is a tweak, not a major cjange.
  
  About the manual, we are actually working on a tutorial system for starting managers, but of course that takes a lot more time to make than these changes.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2

Last edit by Schiavi di Don at 11:55 26/10-2017.

Lokomotíva Zvolen
Posts: 60

Posted at:
12:02 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 23/7-2014
Status: Offline

  75-80 main stats, 51-56 secondary... I know how much I waited to earn enough money to train such a rider, how much patience went into that and now new players will just get it. I dont´like it. This game is all about patience. It should not be changed, it´s what I like about it. It gives more feeling of accomplishment. I´m proud of having such riders, I put effort into that. But new players, they won´t even know, what fell into their hands from the sky. In addition, it will bring in players with completely different mind set, you will see that even in discussions, I predict that.
gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 970

Posted at:
12:36 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Online

  32yo 75-80 51-56, the new captain are just perfect imho, should make them understand the minimum requirements for a captain, in the meanwhile the can't have him as their best rider for more than 1 season.
Zakisu Pirtina
Posts: 36

Posted at:
13:27 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 21/8-2010
Status: Offline

  Can't wait for half of the new "captains" to be released into Hire rider list. Yum yum
LOW 105
Posts: 197

Posted at:
14:00 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  I must say I am with Doctor Love in the points he made. I hope the tweak is very small and will not have too much of an effect.
  
  However, the change that scares me most is the introduction of supercaptains for new teams. I was happy with stronger captains for new teams, but didn't expect them to be so drastically improved. This is a change that might not effect Divisions 1-4, but may be a game-changer for divisions 5 downwards, where there is gonna be a major reshuffling. Plus all managers started in the 4-5 months prior to the implementation of the changes will be at such a huge disadvantage it is ridiculous!
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
14:09 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  There are no supercaptains generated for the new teams. There are riders like Jeppe Michelsen which is the better of the two just generated but still hardly worth 50k when sold. Such captain is good for divisions 9-11 for a season, bud definitely no game changer for divisions 5 or 6.
  
  For sure, it will make some benefit for the new teams as hiring such captain would cost them money but if it helps to attract a few new player, it is worth to try..

Last edit by PEKAC B at 14:09 26/10-2017.

AusGo
Posts: 1370

Posted at:
14:37 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 21/7-2014
Status: Offline

  I hope that the tweaks are minor. But I'm not sure about the captain for new teams. Lets hope that they don't have averages above 40.
Andeby
Posts: 1503

Posted at:
14:40 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  I dont think anyone should be worried that the game will change drastically. I think most casual teams wont even notice the difference. As for the change in exp-importantce, its only a balance tweak in order to make the peak riders be slightly less dominant compared to the slightly younger/older riders.
familytour
Posts: 2708

Posted at:
14:43 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  My opinion is that experience wasn't important anyway after the previous change,to lower its importancy is just meaningless.Anyway,I like the thing that youngsters are going to perform better,here's a big plus from me.
familytour
Posts: 2708

Posted at:
14:45 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Also I'd like to ask if the captain for new teams are maxed or not.
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
14:45 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  @Michael: I posted a link to a newly generated captain, there are two of them so far, AV 41/42, age 32 this season
AusGo
Posts: 1370

Posted at:
14:50 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 21/7-2014
Status: Offline

  People who sign up on the 13th are gonna be very unlucky then :P
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3154

Posted at:
14:53 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  @david
  
  They will be maxed.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Starlynk Bermuda
Posts: 270

Posted at:
15:50 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Online

  Do the new players get a notification or something that the rider's maxed and there's no point in training him? If not, I expect a lot of forum topics ;-)
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1320

Posted at:
16:26 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Online

  They are not. I scouted that Serbian captain earlier to answer just that:
  
  Potential:
  CL: Good
  DH: Average
  HL: Average
  SP: None
  FR: None
  CB: None
  TT: Small
  TQ: Small

Last edit by Hog Bay CT at 16:26 26/10-2017.

Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3154

Posted at:
17:02 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  They might have potential, but they should not be trainable.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
17:31 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  I actually like all of these changes, the randomness factor was too high my opinion.
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 591

Posted at:
19:26 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Online

  The super and good legs brought me in division 4. I'am honest about that.
  I got unexpected results in division 4 and 5.
  I don't expect them anymore with the change.
  
  So I will go down. No problem offcourse but then I will get competition from the new and stronger teams.
  
  But Nick asked to give feedback after 14 november.
  And that is what I will do.
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1320

Posted at:
19:30 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Online

  Don, ah sorry, I misunderstood. :)
Ello Ello
Posts: 828

Posted at:
19:32 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  is it right to assume these changes came into affect when Nick posted? i.e. we already have the things mentioned?
Hog Bay CT
Posts: 1320

Posted at:
19:33 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/9-2014
Status: Online

  No, the opening post says November 14th. ;)
Ello Ello
Posts: 828

Posted at:
22:20 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  you know, I probably should have read that bit, thanks
  
  
Team Zyte
Developer
Posts: 2513

Posted at:
23:38 26/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 24/3-2007
Status: Offline

  I don't understand that some of you guys jump to conclusions right away. Please read what I said, I'm quoting myself:
  
   I do though want a rather high random factor influencing the results, as this is what makes a difference in results in general (highlighted here)
  
  I agreed that the random factor was a bit too high, and therefore I adjusted it. It's not game changing.
  
  You should also consider this statement:
  
  You can consider it to be a tweak of the engine. If it provides better results, I will keep it. If not, I will change it back.
  
  I'm basically trying to optimize the engine. I've always done that, and I will keep doing that. With "better" results, I obviously refer to more realistic results. That has always been my goal, even though it is difficult creating an algorithm providing realistic results, as they are in their core computerized.
  
  Best regards,
  OCM Developer Nick
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
00:58 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  It was not always the case in the past but I'm with Nick now. The influence of randomness is too high after XP factor was cancelled. Any change making the game more predictable is good at the moment.
Cokol Breakaway Team
Posts: 361

Posted at:
04:41 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/3-2015
Status: Offline

  @ Don, those would be great additions for the longevity of the game.
  
  Thanks for responding to the comments, Nick. Again, I feel that you have done a great job to improve and update OCM over the years. But if you want a high random factor, there is no need to turn it down now. The game is far, far from being a lottery and to me best riders and best teams rise to the top of their respective ranking. I find it interesting that 3 teams (Don, Alpine and Honzas) who have come out to support randomness downgrade all have red AVG captains. Brb as I look for one of those.
  
  I hate how this argument is based on feelings of what should happen in results, rather than concrete data. If we approach the randomness issue from statistics viewpoint, over large enough number of permutations all teams will have the same number of super legs and off days. You cannot make conclusion about randomness based on just one unlucky season for just one captain (#SepVanmarcke).
  
  But since we are in the business of sharing stories, I hope you all can forgive me for telling my top moment in this game. It is winning the first U23 TT championship with a meh rider. Honestly, either Getter from Matrix or Narvaez from Abelixe should have won it. But I got lucky with good or super legs. My dude did it. Those underdog/fairy tale stories keep people coming back to this game. That's what MW writes about in his post.
  
  Thanks again for all the time you put in this game and your willingness to read feedback. In turn, I will keep an open mind about the tweak and hope that it will be small in the end.
tomba
Posts: 594

Posted at:
06:27 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/4-2014
Status: Online

  Interesting changes, looking forward to see how they work out in practice.
Abelixe
Posts: 455

Posted at:
09:30 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 28/8-2013
Status: Offline

  Thanks for reminding me about the first u23 TT WC. That was a freaking disappointment, Navarez was in TF, but hit a off day..
  After all ... i totally agree that the underdog/fairytale stories is a vital part of OCM’s greatness.
  Bernal and Palacios robbing Volta a Porto is one of my personal favourites.
  
  Thank you Nick for Keep spending time and optimise the gameplay.
  Thumbs up

Last edit by Abelixe at 09:32 27/10-2017.

Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
10:08 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Nick, while tweaking the engine now, have you given any more thought to decreasing the bonus from top form and implementing a "release top form button" that was discussed earlier?

Last edit by Alpine at 11:10 27/10-2017.

mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
10:50 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  Haha! So my rider who would would finish top 5 if everyone had normal legs and no TF is triggered and finishes outside of top ten with an off day(while he had LO's with good and super legs).
  And you guys want to decrease the importance of TF and keep the importance of day form as it is? What am i missing?
  Oh right, nobody said bingo yet after winning the race.
  
  P.S. Thank fuck you don't want to increase the importance of day form. Jeez!
Schiavi di Don
Administrator
Posts: 3154

Posted at:
11:51 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 22/3-2014
Status: Online

  I hope Nick is allright with me sharing some game engine details, but I think I can greatly reassure Cokol by doing this.
  The change will not completely remove the chance of someone having a super day, or having a very bad day. Those chances still remain in the game. The lower limit of someones performance, which is 0.8 out of 1, and the upper limit, which is 1.15, will still remain possible. However, there will now also be a possibility added for riders to race within a range of 0.9 and 1.10. So there is less chance of people over or underachieving badly, but the chance still remains there. This means miracles are still very much possible.
  
  -----------------------------
  
  OCM Awards Chairman/Admin
  
  'When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.'
  Proverbs 29:2
gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 970

Posted at:
11:55 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Online

  Virenque in this argument you are way to biased, you forgot to mention that in that race inside the top9 there would be ~8 riders with TF.
  Rider A has TF and Good Legs Rider B has TF and off day, who should be head? Your rider of course...
  
  I approve Decreasing the effects of off days and super legs slightly, i think we do need that, what i don't understand is decreasing the number of those, super legs were already rare enough... was it done for managers who get pissed for the high number of off days?
mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
12:12 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/?page=Race&race=Palm%20Bay%20-%20Miami#1
  
  ^that's the race and i'm pretty sure only Drapeau Noir's captain was in TF.
  
  But i've had off days all season, i mean my hillers couldn't score one point in the first half of the season. Sold 4 of them for over 1,1m, so they weren't garbage just not skilled enough for bingo.
gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 970

Posted at:
12:19 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Online

  8th is not out of top9, his rider was a 205 sprinter in a race won by a 245 one...
  My own Giara had those kind of races aswell, what should i expect? That he wins whit an off day just because he has TF?
  
  Edit: top9
  245
  238
  222
  220
  223
  220
  223
  205TF
  242
  
  So he is by far (15points!) the worst sprinter in the top9

Last edit by gabbo e bacardi at 12:30 27/10-2017.

mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
12:32 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  My rider finished 11th...
  
  I'm saying that an off day wipes out TF and more.
  
  Edit: He's a 222 sprinter and his worst LO had 215 sprint points.

Last edit by mapei bianchi at 12:34 27/10-2017.

gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 970

Posted at:
12:50 27/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Online

  That makes more sense... My mistake...
  Haland had a very off day there probably close to "0.8" But i still find it reasonable, it happened to me aswell even in u23 races did Giara manage to finish out of top9 with TF
Undisputed
Posts: 45

Posted at:
22:31 28/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 28/7-2015
Status: Offline

  My captain had 5 off days, 2 mech issue and 2 small crashes on the last 8 races . 3 normal legs and no good or super legs.
  
  I like every changes that reduces the role of luck in this game.
PegasusFlights
Posts: 347

Posted at:
13:41 30/10-2017 GMT

Registered: 10/7-2011
Status: Offline

  Great stuff!
  Looking forward tot he changes!
Comfius
Posts: 1061

Posted at:
21:19 1/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Online

  The highest time.
  How can you have an off day with TF?
  
  Your team participated in Volta do Belo Horizonte. Bob Alards finished 13 th as your best rider.
  Bob Alards rode the race in top form.
  Gregório Lago rode the race in top form. Both canteens and energy bars were used during the race. Darie Mitu had an off day. Bob Alards had an off day. 15:00
Undisputed
Posts: 45

Posted at:
21:32 1/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 28/7-2015
Status: Offline

  Bob took too many energy bars and gels. Just like Dumoulin on the Giro...
Comfius
Posts: 1061

Posted at:
23:04 1/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Online

  That promised for the coming races.
Manisaspor
Posts: 1935

Posted at:
20:42 2/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/5-2011
Status: Offline

  TF an off day happened to me before.
  
  Btw I am against dropping the influence of top form because it costs, lots of time and money to trigger it. Choosing a specific time requires a crucial managerial decision.
  
  About the changes, it will probably not be that big but let's see.
mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
21:21 2/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  If i'm understanding right what Don said an off day can be as bad as -20% and super legs as good as +15%. TF is +10% and some think that's too much.
  
  My riders while on TF have off days close to half of the time and i never tasted the sweet side of variance. At least i heard other have so i can hope.
KRV Rapid Habsburg
Posts: 392

Posted at:
08:37 3/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 13/9-2014
Status: Offline

  In general I welcome these teaks, but I too some degee I share Cokol's concerns.
  
  I see no reason to protect the rich and powerful, if this tweak leads to them winning and earning more I'm not sure this will lead to a better game.
  
  Nick says his goal is to get more realistic results, riders tend to peak around 30 years. I suppose this is why he uses experience to tweak results. And let age decide when a rider peaks and experience can be used to control randomness in good legs and off days. High experience will result in lesser off days and also lower the effect of th off days.
  
  All real life riders have parts of the season they are unable to produce results. In this game same rider might be able to perform well in several tours and also classics in the same season. No rider manage this in real life.
  I think the game will benefit from introducing a visible and controlable form. All riders will get the chance to get a period in topform (period is quite random 10-15 days), riders in top form have lesser chance for off days. The topform is always followed by a recovery period (15-20 days).
  
  I also think the season should be devided into classics and tour periods.
  Day 1-30 Classics
  Day 31-60 Tours
  Day 61-90 Classics
  
  This will force managers to make priorities on what they wants their riders should target. And prevent few riders to totally dominate the whole season.
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
08:57 3/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Franz, I think you are making some good points, but I would still be against a change like that. For small teams it would render much of the season more or less meaningless, and i think it will have exactly the opposite effect of what your goal is. The rich and powerful as you call them would be even more so.
Comfius
Posts: 1061

Posted at:
11:19 3/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Online

  Maybe not a bad idea Franz and it can give a new boost to de game.
Flanders Fields
Posts: 1072

Posted at:
16:12 3/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/5-2014
Status: Offline

  I'm confident these tweaks will be good without removing the "luck" factor
Comfius
Posts: 1061

Posted at:
19:52 4/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 18/5-2012
Status: Online

   I look forward to day 80 if I still play because I think there is much chance that I stop. The only rider who meet to the race description (cb 6 tq 8) was only 17th. Even with an off day would that may not be able to.
  The average TS was 88.
  
  Your team participated in Strade Ciottolo di Roma. Lucas Loudon finished 13 th as your best rider.
  
  Lucas Loudon had an off day. Márcio Fialho had an off day. Márcio Fialho suffered from a very small crash but it didn't seem to affect him much. Both canteens and energy bars were used during the race. Roderick Keatley had an off day. Henrique Pereira had an off day. 11:00
suomi superstars
Posts: 15

Posted at:
21:53 14/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 17/8-2012
Status: Offline

  lets hope the tweak puts a end to this situation, this was a division 6 race and I did not even place!!!!!
  
  Ad'ham Thaher had an OFF DAY. Ad'ham Thaher suffered from a mechanical issue. Lonzo Gonzaga had an OFF DAY. Andreas Lundgaard had an OFF DAY. Reinis Jurevics had an OFF DAY. Both canteens and energy bars were used during the race.
  
  Four off days! Really
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
09:48 15/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Hire a chef to avoid food poisoning...
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
10:07 15/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Is it confirmed now that the changes are live?
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
12:25 16/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  So far in two races, one good day and five off days
suomi superstars
Posts: 15

Posted at:
12:39 16/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 17/8-2012
Status: Offline

  Since the change, that could just be a chance.
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
12:48 16/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Of course it is.
Super Velo
Posts: 807

Posted at:
17:08 20/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/10-2011
Status: Offline

  Here's a novel idea for you. Why don't you just disable the off day messages and all the rest. Use reports like you see on the front page (or that you see for the top 3 finishers, just send that to everyone). If you even need race reports like this which I really don't think we do need them. Just send out a report where your teams rides placed. If you aren't telling a manager their rider had an off day and all the rest than maybe people won't complain as much.
  
  Personally, I'm tired of seeing 5 out of my 6 team riders and many times all 6 having a crash, an off day and all the rest. I rarely see super legs or good leg reports so do away with that and just list where each rider placed and be done with it. Seeing the entire team having off days and having all those crashes is a downer because it deflates when a manager does accomplish something (like training a rider) only to seem him have nothing but off days and crashes.
  
  There seems to be a lot of injuries as well. Everything is so negative in this game and all you are told is how bad your team and riders do. Change up the messaging and maybe tell how the rider was injured or that he joined a breakaway and worked real hard to keep the break going but he ran out of energy during the final sprint.
  
  I can already see how my team sucks by where they constantly place poorly in races that they all seem perfect for. (And I don't expect to win or podium all the time but please stop telling me how crappy my team is that it can only accomplish an off day or a crash!) Maybe toning down the part about how bad the team is doing and replacing it with "well he tried but just didn't have it against the competition present" might make the manager feel better.
  
  Then you can tweak the game engine to your hearts content and see how it goes. And the managers can keep searching for a reason why their very expensive trainee continues to stink and wonder why the expensive doctors, wheels, bike frames and all the other stuff seem to be worthless and have absolutely no effect on how the team does at all.
  
  There are a lot of other issues that I don't need to bring up that could be fixed but I'll just end by saying that I'm happy that my young riders (that aren't all that young anymore) will do better and that my old riders will stink sooner and their experience won't help them much. Better to just do these tweaks and not tall anybody about it... Thats my 2 cents on all this.
  
  
  

Last edit by Super Velo at 17:13 20/11-2017.

Holwerda Cycling
Posts: 1162

Posted at:
17:17 20/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 29/6-2011
Status: Online

  Personally I like the fact that a bad result is caused by an off day. Remove the notification and it will work even more demoralising not knowing why your rider performed badly. In a way it gives even hope on a better result when there is no off day
Super Velo
Posts: 807

Posted at:
17:31 20/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/10-2011
Status: Offline

  Ok, I can agree with you on that. However I don't understand why you need to be told you simply had an off day which tells you nothing. If it tells you nothing then why constantly tell somebody nothing every single time, day after day, the same thing. If you can't say anymore than off day and you can't tell them why their entire team had an off day then I would prefer nothing.
  
  Perhaps provide the manager the option to turn those messages off or offer a choice such as a report of where your riders placed. I would much prefer that and it would be more interesting than constantly counting my off days. Look back at the messages above from managers, many of them are complaining about off days and crashes and there being too many! If you can't see it then it's not happening and your imagination can provide you with a reason why your killer TT guy that you think should have at least finished top 10 finished 36th. See my point. Those reports only show negative stuff, so get rid of them because they are stupid. But I do see your point. .

Last edit by Super Velo at 17:33 20/11-2017.

PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
11:53 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  Add 2 - how it works now:
  
  Your team participated in Kentucky Moonshine Race. Adam Kamanga finished 3 rd as your best rider. You earned 12.000 $.
  
  Juliano Figueiroa had an off day. Plamen Abushev had an off day. Adam Kamanga had a fall. He was quickly back on his bike and continued racing without any problems. Jordão Bento had super legs during the race. Jordão Bento suffered from a crash that influenced his performance the rest of the race. Vlastík Okurka had an off day. Mykhaylo Dittrich had an off day.
  
  I had 5 "exceptional" performances during the race. I know we cannot evaluate the change based on one race but since 14 November when the changes should have been introduced, I have raced 7 races with the following results:
  
  0 exceptional performances in none of them
  1 in 1 race
  2 in 1 race
  3 in 3 races
  4 in 1 race and
  5 in 1 race
  
  In total, 21 in 7 races so I see hardly any reduction which that the riders performance were "exceptional" in 50% of cases.
  
  What is your experience?
Marchons
Posts: 80

Posted at:
13:26 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 19/7-2017
Status: Offline

  Tiny sample size, but here are my numbers from all race summaries in my overview page
  
  3 Races post-14 Nov (39% super/good/off)
  
  1x off
  1x super, 2x off
  1x super, 2x good
  
  7 Races pre-14 Nov (43% super/good/off)
  1x off
  1x good
  2x good, 2x off (+1x crash)
  2x good, 2x off (+1x mech)
  2x off
  1x super, 1x good, 2x off (+1x mech)
  1x super, 1x good (+1x injury)
  
  I'm not sure that crash/mech/injury are affected by the change so excluded them from the % calc

Last edit by Marchons at 13:27 24/11-2017.

PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
13:31 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  My counts above are also without crashes, mechanicals or injuries. Just extraordinary performance.
Marchons
Posts: 80

Posted at:
15:07 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 19/7-2017
Status: Offline

  I've just done some number crunching & I suspect the change hasn't been implemented.
  
  I won't bore you with the binomial distribution details, but even with a sample of only 10 races between me & you since Nov 14 it seems very unlikely that the change has been made
  
  The calc depends on the observations being random (which they are most likely not: you wouldn't have posted here if your results weren't outliers), but even so the chances of this happening are vanishingly small
Super Velo
Posts: 807

Posted at:
18:37 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/10-2011
Status: Offline

  Here's the result from my last race which was the WC TT race where a meager 14 teams were entered. I don't expect to win or even get on the podium, but 25th place! My team consists of 6 Inc TT riders and all they can manage is 25th place out of about 84 riders and some of the teams entered do not have even close to 6 Inc riders.
  
  Look at this joke of a report. One of my riders is also out of action for the rest of this month with another injury and he started the race with dp about 80!. He gets injured and this has been an injury filled and off day filled season.
  
  Nick, if you are reading this please add the option to turn off race reports because I would rather see nothing then this stuff posted below all the time. It's ALL I get ever. Why waste months of real time training up a team like I have only to constantly see this. Might be time to move on because this game will never be fixed.
  
  Why even have a doctor and why bother having a rider sit in the rest day thing for 2 weeks? It doesn't matter. 25th place, why can't my team do better than that? What a joke.
  
  Your team participated in World Championships ITT. Herbert Landberg finished 25 th as your best rider.
  
  Primo Vicar had an off day. Coleman Moutray had an off day. Rick Cramer received an injury during the race. Rick Cramer received first aid during the race and was able to finish despite his injury. 11:40
  
  Who cares if Rick Cramer received first aid and finished the race despite his injury! Whats the point of that? He's still injured and out for for 7 days.

Last edit by Super Velo at 18:48 24/11-2017.

Ello Ello
Posts: 828

Posted at:
19:54 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  My thoughts on why this change will make no difference.
  
  Nick wants to make it a small difference, since we started at about 23% of riders having off days we can assume he changed it by at most 5% down to 18%. Now here's the problem, no one is going to notice 5 less off days over a 100 rides. It comes to being about 1 less off day every 3 races and whilst it's definitely a big change people will just naturally struggle to notice it.
  
  Another reason is that teams will still have off days at important times e.g. during the king stage of a tour or a classic whilst in tf. Ye they'll happen slightly less but again people will struggle to notice it because we inherently remember the 10th place that loses a tour more than the normal legs 4th that doesn't change much.
  
  From my small amount of data very little has changed but again with it being a small change I probably need 200-300 rides before I can even begin to say with any level of certainty whether anything's changed.
Super Velo
Posts: 807

Posted at:
21:03 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/10-2011
Status: Offline

  Well said Henri, I agree with you. In fact this change really doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.
  
  The main problem is that people (like myself) will continue to focus in on the off days that seemingly plague this game. In fact compared to real world cycling it would seem like the off day infests the results in this game while in real life cycling it might be called something else. And that seems to be a big problem.
  
  With the above said and the fact that the majority of managers complain and simply do not like to see the constant barrage of off days that occur, that's why I say change that aspect of the game. How hard would it be to have the option for the manager to turn off the showing of off days and instead just have a listing of where each rider on the team finishes the race.
  
  Out of sight out of mind. Either that or change the wording and call an off days something else. Also while you are at it change super and good legs to something else because that terminology is foolish and at best meaningless as far as describing a teams or riders efforts or rather non-effort which seems to be way more common than a descent effort.

Last edit by Super Velo at 21:03 24/11-2017.

Ello Ello
Posts: 828

Posted at:
22:56 24/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 20/3-2016
Status: Offline

  Also, for Marchons
  
  Your value is likely to carry a bias. Both you and Honzas are commenting because you perceive there to have been no change whilst managers who have had a decrease have less of an incentive to comment.
  
  Taking data from a post like this will always be skewed towards high off days because people want to complain more than they want to 'show off their good luck'.
  
  Both your data and Honzas' are perfectly good data but there's a lot of limitations in collecting data from a post like this.
Marchons
Posts: 80

Posted at:
18:08 25/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 19/7-2017
Status: Offline

  I know there’s bias in the data (as acknowledged in my post), although my motivation for posting was from being bored & having nothing better to do. In any event I don’t think my results are unreasonable or indicative of anything
  
  My reason for concluding that the change probably hasn’t been implemented is that I think honzas’ results should be (almost) impossible based what I think are pretty good estimates of the likelihood of off/super/good (based on your & holwerda’s data in an old thread & Don’s comments on the game engine)
  
  I think the chances of O/G/S used to be about 36% and is now about 18% (from memory, don’t have my spreadsheet in front of me). At 36% likelihood, 21 or more incidences out of 42 (7 races) in Honzas’ results should happen c.8% if he time. At 18% it should basically never happen
DeRodeLantaarn
Posts: 591

Posted at:
19:00 25/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/10-2016
Status: Online

  After 14th November:
  
  1 Your team participated in Pidhirne - Zhuravky. Inosi Kalaou finished 15 th as your best rider.
  
  Kazimierz Zarzycki had an off day. Henrick Borch had super legs during the race. Patrício Massinga had an off day.
  
  2 Your team participated in SS7. Orlando Mackay finished 13 th as your best rider.
  
  Tom Fjelsted had an off day. Sibbe Bessing had an off day. Farid Zorzanello had an off day.
  
  3 Your team participated in Luanda Streets. Anton Heimdal finished 59 th as your best rider.
  
  Inosi Kalaou suffered from a crash that influenced his performance the rest of the race. Inosi Kalaou suffered from a mechanical issue. Anton Heimdal had good legs during the race. Henrick Borch had super legs during the race
  
  4 Your team participated in Sárvár - Celldömölk. Quinty Kuyt finished 9 th as your best rider. You earned 2.000 $.
  
  Inosi Kalaou had an off day. Orlando Mackay had an off day. Taras Chekmaryov had an off day. Sibbe Bessing had good legs during the race
  
  5 Your team participated in Chernivtsi - Ostrytsia. Inosi Kalaou finished 18 th as your best rider.
  
  Sibbe Bessing had an off day. Quinty Kuyt had an off day. Henrick Borch had super legs during the race.
  
  To me it looks like Point 1 is working.
  The better riders are in the top 9 more often and the luck chance reduced. At least for my races.
  
  About the normal, good legs and off days I think I expected more normal days.
  But my captians had all normal days and only one offday.
  
  Most funny thing for me is 3 times superlegs for Borch:)
  
  
  

Last edit by DeRodeLantaarn at 19:41 25/11-2017.

Cokol Breakaway Team
Posts: 361

Posted at:
05:11 26/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/3-2015
Status: Offline

  I am commenting re: changing starting DP of new teams from 60(?) to 80. Sorry to hijack the topic, I didn't find a better place to post.
  
  Nick, can we boost starting DP of riders from talent feature to 80 too? It takes a long time for them to have competitive DP/RS as they now start at DP 70 and RS 80. It's a simple and sensible change that will benefit all teams.
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
09:09 26/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  Henri, I do not complain about off days. Yesterday I had another race with 4 "abnormal" performances which means I have 3+ / race such performances in a race in average, i.e. more than 50% riders affected by abnormal performance of all types.
  
  In the opening posts, Nick says: "This means that you will see fewer "good legs", "super legs" and "off days" in the future." which is not my case.
  
  So my question is whether I´m the lucky / unlucky one or whether it is common now and the change does not work.

Last edit by PEKAC B at 09:10 26/11-2017.

Nikoline
Posts: 600

Posted at:
17:31 28/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 5/10-2014
Status: Offline

  I have experienced that my old CP (34) is down the list in races where he should do well. Just slightly worse? Others have the same feeling?
LOW 105
Posts: 197

Posted at:
14:29 29/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 9/7-2014
Status: Offline

  Leolion, absolutely with you on this.
  
  Did 2 pointless TTs along 2 other races I didn't really compete and the conclusion was that my riders aged 27 or less consistently and significantly overperform and those 31+ consistently and significantly underperform. It is getting back to the ridiculous old times when any rider above 32 was useless!
Nikoline
Posts: 600

Posted at:
18:01 29/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 5/10-2014
Status: Offline

  Looks like I wasted 60 K to finally TT-center him to win Norway Tour in TF. Time will show...
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
18:04 29/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  Not sure why the rider's peak isn't a plateau. Performance should be very similar from 27 to 33.
mapei bianchi
Posts: 1523

Posted at:
18:50 29/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/7-2010
Status: Offline

  Hour record test
  
  Marcelino Santambrogio 34yo and 55 days
  69 DP - 48,692 km
  67 DP - 48,258 km
  65 DP - 48,487 km
  63 DP - 48,253 km
  61 DP - 48,262 km
  
  Wesley van Dongen 28yo and 42 days on TF
  68 DP - 47,999 km
  66 DP - 47,734 km
  64 DP - 47,690 km
  62 DP - 47,618 km
  60 DP - 47,606 km
  
  TF does count for the hour record. Make of it what you will.
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
08:19 30/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  I scored 8th place in the Top division with 34 yo captain and normal legs so I would guess it is not so bad.
Stroopwafel
Posts: 1269

Posted at:
17:15 30/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 11/5-2010
Status: Offline

  Probably just coincidence and bad luck, but my first try at a proper race after comeback consisted of five (!) off days (plus a mechanical and an injury with high DP, not a single line of good news whatsoever). Would love to know indeed if changes have been implemented, cheers.
gabbo e bacardi
Posts: 970

Posted at:
17:43 30/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 7/6-2012
Status: Online

  I averaged 1.9 good+off+super days for race since 14/11
PEKAC B
Posts: 1986

Posted at:
17:56 30/11-2017 GMT

Registered: 31/5-2012
Status: Online

  I´m at 2.9(0909090909009...) from 11 races.
TheBestCyclingTeam
Posts: 39

Posted at:
15:12 1/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 17/3-2017
Status: Offline

  2,17 from 6 races.
Cyclists
Posts: 757

Posted at:
15:14 1/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 27/8-2012
Status: Online

  3.0 from 6 races
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
15:37 1/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  2.29 from 7 races (12 off days, 4 good days)
  
Nikoline
Posts: 600

Posted at:
17:00 5/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 5/10-2014
Status: Offline

  Seems like I am a big whiner, but really? Lolo Sita nr.38 as CP?
  
  http://www.cyclingsimulator.com/?page=Race&race=Crit%C3%A9rium+Tourmalet#1
  
  I wrote a longer message, but my internet failed me.
  I am all for development in the game, but the tweak on older riders seems a bit much (so far with my results).

Last edit by Nikoline at 17:05 5/12-2017.

Velo Club Bored Man
Posts: 924

Posted at:
11:41 13/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2009
Status: Offline

  I have not had a result for a long time. So I thought I'd check. My last result was 32 days ago. And the changes came in to place 30 days ago. I've had 6 races since then.
  
  I don't think it's just bad luck. I have also added some equipment to my team (frame and wheels) because I had made some money before this. And now suddenly I can't even get in the Top9 again.
  
  I too think the changes have affected things too much. Maybe they were supposed to, I don't know... but I'm struggling massively in races I could score points in a season or two ago.
Alpine
Posts: 386

Posted at:
12:14 13/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 15/9-2014
Status: Offline

  @Hairingtons, the changes should have helped some of your young strong riders.
  
  I still think it would make sense to have a plateau top performance period from something like 27 to 32, instead of a peak at 29 like it is now.
  
Velo Club Bored Man
Posts: 924

Posted at:
13:58 13/12-2017 GMT

Registered: 12/7-2009
Status: Offline

  Yeah I don't disagree with the idea really. Just posting what's actually happened in my races.
  
  I use Rozadilla (26), Bortolotti (27), and Bourgois (24) as captains, and they're all performing worse than they were before the changes.
  
  We'll see. Maybe I'm just in a really bad run.

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